How to build a brand in consumer electronics with Repeat Audio founder Dorus Galama

Lars: 0:00

Today we dive into the story of Dorus Galama, founder and CEO of Repeat Audio, the modular high-fidelity headphones with three repairs for life. In this conversation, we'll explore how to build a consumer brand in the circular economy, pivoting from product as a service to product sales, and the fine line between failure and success in crowdfunding. This is Start to Scale, the podcast, where we highlight stories of remarkable founders from South Holland and delve into their scale-up journeys. My name is Lars Krammer and you're listening to Episode 55, covering the story of Dorus.

Lars: 0:37

After he completed his master in strategic product design from Delft University, doris began to do graphic studio work together with his fellow student from Delft, tom, and from a deep love for music and the determination to stand up against the industry with products that produced massive electronic waste, they started Gerrard Street in 2015, which was later renamed Repeat Audio, and today Repeat offers a range of modular high-fidelity headphones, and notable users include the Metropole Orchestra and one of the most important Dutch rappers, stix. Doris also finds time to play the piano and gives back as a volunteer by helping refugees. Welcome, doris, great to have you here on the show. Thanks, did I say anything that was not true in the intro. No, I think it was correct.

Lars: 1:21

Okay, got that sorted. So you are a music lover. You've been there for a long while. How many headsets have you consumed in your life before you founded? Repeat.

Dorus: 1:31

Oh, that's a lot. I used to buy Sennheisers the cheaper ones, and they had this really long cable. The cable was attached. You couldn't detach it, so you couldn't replace it if it broke, and the cables were, I think, three and a half meter.

Lars: 1:48

Oh, that's really long that you trip over. Exactly, yeah.

Dorus: 1:52

And extremely thin, so they used to break all the time, okay, and I think I bought two per year.

Lars: 1:59

Oh wow, something like that, yeah, and then the broken can't repair them have to, exactly, yeah.

Dorus: 2:05

So I also. I didn't want to throw them away Because it still. It felt like a valuable piece of electronics, so I kept it in my closet, doing nothing, and I also tried to repair them. But it's impossible, because once you open them, everything is glued together or stuff just breaks. Yeah.

Lars: 2:26

So, that's it. Okay, yeah, that's it. So we'll dive into the solution that you've created for this problem. But so you have been breaking them yourself but also using them yourself. It's great to talk to you here on this podcast. We had you actually on upstream talks before, where you talked about circular economy and how nice but also how difficult it is to compete in that space. So really look forward to delving into your story here and also to dive into, I think, your love brand, because that's what you've been creating. But first we start with a few statements that you can also with true or false. You ready, yeah, yeah. First one people buy products because they're sustainable.

Dorus: 3:12

Some people do. I'd say generally it's false, generally false.

Lars: 3:19

Sometimes I wish I had chosen a less difficult market. True, we prioritize growth over profit. True. In a parallel universe, I'm probably a rock hero, true. Okay, maybe we get to that parallel universe. Let's start with your why. We talked already about the Sennheiser phones. I think we live in a throwaway society. Right, we get a lot of electronic waste and you decided to do something about it. Can you share your origin story? So what made you decide to start a company like repeat?

Dorus: 4:04

It was, I guess, first of all my own frustration, so I threw away a lot of headphones. But it wasn't only headphones. I saw it in a lot of electronics that were getting increasingly difficult to repair. One of the main examples was my Apple MacBook, which in previous models I could update the memory, have a new hard disk, et cetera, et cetera. That allowed me to use it for about 10 years and to upgrade over time. With the newer models, suddenly this wasn't possible anymore. I had a simple failure and I took it to the repair shop because I wasn't allowed to repair it myself anymore. They told me that I'd get an entirely new motherboard and basically just buy a new one because it was so expensive. You could rather buy a new.

Lars: 5:01

MacBook, buying new is cheaper than replacing a part. Yeah, exactly.

Dorus: 5:08

It wasn't just the headphones that annoyed us as industrial designers, and if you combine this with so, it's annoying from a consumer point of view, but if you look at the bigger picture, we are throwing away a lot of these electronics. Interestingly enough, the materials that are in these projects are getting scarcer and more valuable. So there was also an economic potential, we felt. So this is why we saw this. This is so interesting. Why is the world seems to be moving in the direction? There's a bigger need in the world, let's say like this.

Dorus: 5:48

So these materials are getting more expensive and there's a waste problem, but the design of these devices is going in the opposite direction.

Lars: 5:57

It's gluing everything together so you cannot repair and replace.

Dorus: 6:00

Exactly yeah, and buy more and buy faster, yeah.

Lars: 6:04

Okay. So I think, well, not an easy space to compete in, but I think you've found a really nice way of doing it. Maybe let's start. I think your headphones are used by some, I would say, remarkable musicians. We just mentioned them, so the Metropole Orchestra. I think that's a great example, right? And a rapper. Maybe explain who is buying these things. So who are your customer segments and why would people buy repeat headphones?

Dorus: 6:34

It's interesting, it's broader. So we started off with, let's say, the typical early adopter, mostly male, between 20 and 30 years old, young, progressive, et cetera. But now it's a lot more. It's a lot broader than that. Our top audience is still between 25 and 35 years old, but the next segment is 50 to 60 years old. Okay, the red line is something around sustainability.

Dorus: 7:08

Because, it's a different approach and these are not full green activists or something like that, but they're just annoyed by the same things that we are annoyed For the younger people. They see sometimes the broader picture. They are talking about circular economy. They might buy vintage, they might be vegan or vegetarian, etc. And they are just looking for ways to improve their lifestyle. And for the older segment, it's for them a means of going back to the old time, where they are used to having stuff that you can open and that you can repair.

Dorus: 7:50

And they are annoyed by the fact that everything is glued together and that stuff is made so poorly.

Lars: 7:57

Oh nice, there are two segments and I'm guessing both are people that can really enjoy good audio, right, because I think you'll get your headset if you want to go for quality.

Dorus: 8:07

Definitely.

Lars: 8:09

That's an interesting insight. So you have those two groups, one going back to the old days when everything was fixable, and then the younger generation wants to probably not only use it but also show that they're using something sustainable. We have your headphones here and, for those that have never seen it, we'll put a link in the show notes. But basically you can replace every part, right, so you can take the headband off, you can replace a pillow, you can pretty much put it together.

Dorus: 8:32

Exactly, and so we chose to do this in simple modules, so you won't have to open up, for instance, the sound box or something, and you won't have to solder stuff. Exactly it's click and go, so it's almost the ease of using card riches in your Nintendo.

Lars: 8:55

Yeah, and then it comes in a small box in your mailbox, so it's also easy to send, I think it's got a great business model going there. However, you're competing in a space that is dominated by a few large players. You mentioned Sennheiser, I think they're Sony right, how do you stay afloat with these kind of big brands? How do you compete with them?

Dorus: 9:16

Yeah, obviously that's a big challenge. So the initial approach that we had was to not compete directly with them but go for a protocol service model, meaning that you couldn't buy our headphones, you paid. We started off with 5 euros per month in the crowdfunding and, depending on the model we ended up with, I think 17.50 per month for the noise-canceling premium model, and this was our way of entering this market by not directly competing with the big brands.

Dorus: 9:49

So, if you wanted to buy a Sony, you would buy a Sony, but typically we would target people that bought low-end headphones or actually, the majority of them had never owned headphones, but they bought these cheap earplugs instead. And these were the people that just threw away a lot of them, actually, so was I when I was a student.

Dorus: 10:14

So for them, the consideration was am I going to buy another pair of earplugs the fifth one this year, or am I going to switch to high-end audio stuff that I would never buy but I would like to have?

Lars: 10:29

Yeah, and then with a subscription, so you pay on a monthly basis.

Dorus: 10:32

So this was our initial approach in this market and at some point we figured let's just try selling them and competing directly with Sony.

Lars: 10:43

And why did you make that decision?

Dorus: 10:46

This was during the COVID period, when we started selling a lot to businesses and businesses didn't want to rent.

Lars: 10:56

Because everybody in COVID was working behind their computers and all of a sudden needed it.

Dorus: 11:00

Exactly for the out of home. What's it called Work? From home. So there was a demand for headphones from businesses, but a lot of them didn't want to rent, they just want to buy the headphones. So fine with us. We piloted this, this worked, and then we figured okay, let's just try it also in B2C, because the Project Service Model is just extremely difficult. It's financially very difficult.

Lars: 11:31

Why?

Dorus: 11:31

Because you need to pre-finance, Exactly so you need to pre-finance everything and money is dripping in actually. So if we had a good month, if we sold a lot of subscriptions, then by the end of the month our bank account was lower than at the beginning of the month.

Lars: 11:48

Did you find somebody to pre-finance that for you?

Dorus: 11:52

The production cost. We did so. We found a production partner who was willing to pay all the pre-investments, so malls et cetera, everything all the pre-financing for the production. They would also buy the headphones in batches. So pre-finance that so for instance 2,000, 3,000 headphones, and we would just buy per 20 from them and pay six months later.

Lars: 12:18

Okay, well, that's good, and then hopefully you've collected the first six months of rent so they can make up Exactly. Yeah, so that helped a bit.

Dorus: 12:26

But still you have to do these marketing investments et cetera. So it's still very difficult, and our main objection was that we could only sell direct to consumer from our own webshop, so it was impossible for us to sell via small stores or via bullcom or whatever, which are usually still the channels where you can potentially get a lot of volume. So we were very much bound to this direct to consumer strategy, which is difficult to scale if you don't have a lot of cash.

Lars: 13:02

So there's two really interesting parts of this story. One is having to pre-finance, because we always think that product as a service is a really nice model, but you forget that you actually do need to pre-finance these things. And then obviously that's complexity the D2C. You also made a segue to finding a good partner, because I think we speak to a lot of founders and also investors that struggle with funding hardware in consumer markets, which I think is a really difficult combination, and you've solved that with a partner. So maybe elaborate a little bit on what kind of partner did you find and how did you set up such an agreement? And aren't you afraid that they will kill you, they will steal your idea? Sorry, three questions, yeah, a lot of questions.

Dorus: 13:46

To begin with, how did we set it up? We always knew there were two directions for us. Either we would have to raise two million, maybe three, Because to get into a proper headphones factory they would require you to buy minimum order quantities, usually 20,000. But that's the minimum.

Lars: 14:09

Yeah, that's the low end and you'll probably relatively still pay a lot. Then Exactly, yeah.

Dorus: 14:13

And usually you would have to start with your first batch of around 50,000 headphones, so that alone would cost you a few million. That was one way to go or the other way was to find a production partner that would want to pay these costs for us, and this was a bit of luck.

Lars: 14:37

So we found one in Rotterdam and we didn't know existed oh wow, one of the odds.

Dorus: 14:43

Exactly, yeah, and the deal was really sweet because it was also just the stars aligned they were producing these low end headphones and they were just stepping up to a high end factory and they were in the midst of making their first deal with them.

Dorus: 15:03

So they had a planned order of about 60,000 headphones. And this was when we came in and they said okay, well, we can try to put you in this deal and then we'll demand that they will only make 3000 headphones, which is probably their anoint. But the prospect of having 60,000 headphones plus recurring revenue will probably make them accept this deal which they did yeah so this was extremely lucky, so there's always a bit of luck in the future.

Lars: 15:34

Okay, you've been working with that partner ever since and then flipping to your customer side, I think in the intro we talked about. Are you selling sustainability or are you selling good headphones? What did you learn about how people buy these headphones? Is the sustainability part? Is that enough? Is that driving? What's getting these people from buying it?

Dorus: 15:59

I'd say when we started it was definitely not enough. So sustainability wasn't the selling point. We even didn't use the word in any of our ads or on the website. So, instead, what we did was explain what we did, which is if anything breaks, you get a new part for free and we retrieve the old part and reuse it.

Lars: 16:20

So really functional. What do you get as a user? Exactly, yeah, so what you say is what you get. Yeah.

Dorus: 16:29

And now it's After a while. It started to shift a bit. So you see that sustainability now is a more important factor in people's lives. But I'd say the main lesson is Never forget what's in it for the user themselves. So in our case, yes, it's good for the world, you know. So if, if anything fails, you won't have to throw away the headphone, it won't end up at the big e-waste pile.

Dorus: 16:55

Yeah instead, you only replace the, the part that's broken and Also that's not blown away, but we will retrieve it and we will reuse it, which, in a lot of cases, we actually are able to yeah so that's good for the world, but of course for you. The benefit is that the surface is just top-notch and if anything fails you'll just go to the website. If you have free repairs forever. Yeah or free repairs. It won't cost you anything and you can just get a free yeah module and it will arrive the next day. Yeah.

Dorus: 17:29

And so it's. It's good for the world, but it's also good for you. Yeah we still see that if we ask people what's the main reason for buying, usually they will say it's good for the world. But if you see what converts? So what are the? The, the unique selling points and things to highlight in ads? Yeah. It's more what's good for you.

Lars: 17:50

Okay, that's really interesting because this is also, I think, for anybody doing online consumer research what people say is not always what people do, right. So you just made it interesting if you ask you, you probably give a, an answer that I'd like to hear. But by actually measuring the clicks you see what people really say. The military.

Dorus: 18:07

This is because when we started already there were these consumer Researches, and even ten years ago that said that 60% of the people says they are willing to buy or to spend more on product. If it's sustainable stuff like that, yeah, but it they hardly ever talk about Hard consumer data. Yeah, are they yeah are they spending more on? And probably they're aren't talking about it because it's just, it's hardly there.

Lars: 18:36

Yeah, no, I can actually. I can imagine, and I'm probably also guilty of that. So if I buy something, it needs to be comfortable, solving my my job to be done, first Mm-hmm and then, if it's sustainable, it really adds. I mean, then it ranks up right purchasing decision. But actually paying more for a sustainable product. Well, maybe I'm an outlier anyway, so I do it sometimes, but I think I'm not the general public buying these things.

Dorus: 18:59

So and still the product need to be sold, a solid that's it.

Lars: 19:02

Yeah, that's the.

Dorus: 19:04

I think, that's the most important. So we went to Tony Chocolonely in the beginning and we talked to their marketing director and she explained to us like the, the mission is cool and it's it's what makes the brand right. Yeah but in the end of the day it just needs to be tasty chocolate. Yeah, it needs to taste good. If it's horrible, then we couldn't sell it and for us it's the same.

Dorus: 19:27

You know that it I think it's we are trying to build a love brand. Definitely it is lifestyle, it's, it's. It has a very cool promise, etc. But in the end of the day, the headphones just need to be really good.

Lars: 19:44

That's where it all starts. That's where it all starts and all kind of brands come to mind now I will not mention them that are not delivering on the promise just because they are sustainable, which is build crap products. Anyways, we talked a bit about profits Versus growth, or at least I put a statement in there. In the phase where you are now, you're running a profitable business, I understand, right. So, but in in the next phases, what is what is your? What is your aim? Do you need to be profitable? Do you need to grow fast? What? What can we expect from? And repeat now.

Dorus: 20:16

We definitely want to grow. That's why I chose growth. We yes, we are just sorry we are profitable. Yeah. But I'd say not so much by choice, it's just, it's difficult raising money for these kind of ventures Because it's building a brand and a lot of a lot of investors are I Don't know what's the right word there they're not so happy to invest.

Lars: 20:43

Yeah, they're hesitant to exactly.

Dorus: 20:46

Yeah, so what we, what we really want to do, is, I Feel that that the puzzle is there. You know, we have, we have a lot of musicians using our product. Reviews are really good, we are selling and we are showing that we can make a profit also on this business model, which is radically different, of course. So, so the baseline is there, but now we just want to and and we are growing, by the way, but we are growing organically.

Dorus: 21:14

Yeah no, 30% per year, and we just want to grow 300% per year, yeah, okay.

Lars: 21:22

So then you're looking for investors. Maybe before we go to those investors, you also did crowdfunding, I think twice, yeah, and one was a success, one was less of a success. Maybe can you dissect what. What was that process like and what did you learn from it?

Dorus: 21:36

There are a lot of learning, so we did this. I must say it's already seven years ago or so, but I think the lessons are still more or less valid. The first lesson is it's a campaign that you really need to Prepare mm. So our initial thought was oh, across something that's cool because you just make a few videos and you upload it in a week and then money starts flowing in. You know, yeah. Optimist approach yeah exactly yeah, which luckily we didn't do so we were warned before that that's not how it works.

Dorus: 22:09

Actually. You, you need to prepare this a lot. You need to have 50%, but usually even 100% of your goal already. Achieve upfront and making sure that these people are pledging the first day. Yeah. Like I said, maybe these rules are not entirely up to date anymore, but that's what it used to be, and then it's just campaigning, campaigning, campaigning. It's.

Dorus: 22:35

Hard work and it's. It's sort of a ball that you need to get rolling, and if it starts rolling, then indeed you get this multiplier effect, you know then yeah so if the in in the first crowdfunding we reached, I'm not sure. I think we reached our goal the first day, or something like that, and then pretty, pretty soon we were picked up by one of the bigger media's. I don't know, maybe it was NRC or something like that. Yeah and once they pick you up, the others start writing about you too.

Lars: 23:08

and so then, snowball. Yeah, exactly, you get a snowball, and that went really well yeah and this is exactly what we miscalculated the second time.

Dorus: 23:17

I thought, okay, we, we now know how this works. Yeah, but it wasn't new anymore, so nobody would write about it. Yeah because they said well, we wrote about you last year and this time will pass. Yeah. Oh wow, yeah, and if you can't get the first one, it's. It's just stalls.

Lars: 23:36

Yeah, yeah, oh, that's hard. Yeah, and what did you kill? The second one or did you finish it? No, we did finish it and and and.

Dorus: 23:44

We we raised. I think it was okay ish, because we had a community right. So, that helped, of course. The community was bigger and we could thrive a bit on that community. But we never got that wow effect and it was just. I know it was really. We had a call list of about 150 journalists which we split, so 75 each. It was just calling every day and only hearing no, no, no, no Wow yeah, we already talked about you.

Lars: 24:18

Sorry, come back. Exactly Okay well, there's a good lesson in there, I think be prepared. I think the fact that you have your pledges up front, so that meter is already in the green when you start, that helps. And also realize that the press is looking for new stuff, so don't expect them to write a second time. I think there's great learnings in there. Maybe we've been talking relatively about the highlights and the nice points of building a business. It's also hard work and lonely sometimes. Yeah, what's been the hardest part on your entrepreneurial journey?

Dorus: 24:55

I think, in general, the hardest part is that when you start, you think this is a great idea, and probably everybody will think this is a great idea and you think well, if we managed to reach a million people with Facebook, which cost you a few thousand euros, then what are the chances that at least a thousand people will buy it? It's more than a thousand stuff like that and the reality having a consumer brand is so much harsher, it's really difficult to sell something to someone.

Dorus: 25:28

In general, I think B2B, that's probably also the case. It's just really difficult to get that first sale and to get stuff moving and second of all, it's not a straight lineup. So usually the line goes up and then you're the man, then it stalls and then suddenly you find yourself in a position where you wore a few years ago or maybe even lower, and this is constantly fluctuating, which can Well. You need to adjust to it, I tell you so. I think in the first years this definitely killed morale sometimes, but then after a while you also start getting used to this and you know that this is the way it goes and actually you start to enjoy it, basically Because when you see stuff going down.

Dorus: 26:28

it's putting the knife on your throat and you get this survival instinct.

Lars: 26:35

It forces you to be innovative and come up with new ideas.

Dorus: 26:40

So it's also something that you learn to embrace in a while.

Dorus: 26:44

But I think that's difficult, and one of the most difficult periods was indeed this second crowdfunding, when we had a cocktail of so up to then, things were going pretty well. We were actually on pace. So within a year we went from just an idea to having a crowdfunding but also a product that was producible and having all these contracts. So we were ready to start producing this headphone, and then we grew from 500 to 1,000 clients also within a few months. Things were going really well and then it started stalling and we started. We were lacking behind in the market and we needed to make the transition to wireless and that's why we did the second crowdfunding. But by then we had basically stalled on growth and it was getting really difficult to also do this crowdfunding because we weren't new anymore. And then it was, and also it was very difficult to raise money. I think we already tried something, but no one wanted to invest, which was fine because we had no production deal or whatsoever. We did all these stuff just via Alibaba and via email.

Dorus: 28:08

So I can see why a smart investor would not take the risk. So I think that was the first crisis that we had where it was really difficult, and we had a third co-founder on board who also wasn't used to this kind of beating, so that even just killed the entire vibe basically, and that the co-founder is no longer with you, right. Yes.

Lars: 28:39

The two of you now. So, okay, what did you learn from that process? And one of the questions people always have what happened with the equity? How did you fix that?

Dorus: 28:52

So what I learned from this process is to always go back to the main drawing board, so things are not going the way you expect them to be. But is this really a problem? Are you invalidating your business? Right now, and this is what I concluded I am invalidating a second crowdfunding, so my marketing campaign isn't working. We are not reaching a lot of people, but we are not per se Validating that nobody wants to have this headphone right just we aren't reaching people and this is not the channel to do to do it.

Dorus: 29:34

So, we need to find another channel to start reaching people again and then if nobody wants to have a hat fun, we are invalidating the business model. But at this point it was just, it was just frustrating that that it wasn't working. Yeah, but there was no reason to kill the business because, in fact, we had clients. We knew that our current clients wanted to upsell to a new model, so and and we were already seeing in this mechanism that we were able to make a profit on these people as well.

Lars: 30:05

So there was all lights were on green, exactly, yeah only we.

Dorus: 30:10

We just fully committed to a plan that didn't work, to a marketing campaign that that failed. So I think this is this. This is a lesson that we want. Things don't go your way. This is. This is always what we do. I sit together with Tom and I just start analyzing the core basics. You know what's what's the matter? Yeah, aren't we reaching a lot enough people? So is our marketing failing? Yeah, is our conversion failing? So are there a lot of people but they don't want to buy for some reason? Why is that? Is it? Is it something else? You know, is it what's going on in the rest of the world? What are other entrepreneurs experiencing who are also selling? We had this last summer where where a sales just took a nosedive and we couldn't figure it out, and until we started talking to our retailers and also other entrepreneurs and everyone said we are, our sales are in decline.

Lars: 31:16

So it's the market.

Speaker 4: 31:17

Yeah so then you need to adjust to that, but then, it then.

Dorus: 31:22

So then we went in sort of a hibernation mode for the summer. Instead of just spending more and more and more on getting these sales up.

Lars: 31:29

Okay, learning from others. I think that's a great way to look at it. Maybe because we didn't answer this question, so the third co-founder left. Yeah, was that all in. Was it? Was it messy or did you know?

Dorus: 31:41

in the end it wasn't messy it, it went actually very smoothly. So she decided to leave herself. Okay, also because of her boyfriend accepted the job in the US. So so things kind of got together and and she gave back these years. Okay, okay. And we, we paid something for it, but it's okay with a loan and it was all very nice.

Lars: 32:08

Okay, perfect. Well, that's a great, that's a great ending. We will go to a very quick break and then we'll be back.

Speaker 5: 32:15

You're listening to the podcast of Uproaderdam. We help start up skill and grow their business by offering access to talent, access to international markets and access to capital. Curious how we can make the network work for you? Go to Uproaderdamcom. This podcast was made possible by the city of Rotterdam.

Lars: 32:34

Welcome back. We're talking to Doris about his business and how it's growing, developing, going forward, and this is the thing. When we have a break, we also have a little chat, and there was one thing you said that triggered me. That was about going to sustainability events. What would you like to explain what you just said during the break?

Dorus: 32:52

So one of the key lessons that we learned in starting a sustainable business, or maybe even a business based on ideals it doesn't necessarily have to be sustainability, but what we learned is that I saw a lot of entrepreneurs who were fully focused on this sustainability part and making their products greener and investing all their time in making. If it was circular, for instance, the product is 100% circular and then when all their budgets were spent, then they would go to the market and say, look, this product is perfect.

Dorus: 33:32

And just to find out that nobody wanted to buy their product and there wasn't any money anymore to do anything else. So I see this a lot, this over emphasis on sustainability and this completely neglect of just all commercial aspects like making perfect and finding a customer, and this is, after a while, also why we stopped going to the sustainability events because it's just, it's endlessly talking about materials and new ways of recycling and stuff, but what's interesting is, who are you selling this to? And I just want to see businesses the business opportunity, businesses that thrive because otherwise this is also from ideology.

Dorus: 34:23

If you are only proving that you can make a green product that nobody wants, you're actually killing the sustainability movement as a whole. We want to show that, yes, it is possible to have free repairs forever on electronics and to make products that last a lot longer than the average consumer spend, and that it's actually possible to sell these at the same price If you so need to compete directly with them and to make a profit on it.

Lars: 34:57

So that's real market validation. I think there's a sound advice in here, for if you are an entrepreneur that wants to make a positive impact in society, surround yourself with people that are building, let's say, regular, fast growing companies, because you're going to learn a lot from them I think we hear the same, obviously with engineering companies that create something that nobody wants.

Lars: 35:16

But I think, particularly in this space, surround yourself with entrepreneurs that are growing. Learn from it. Learn how the market works Basically. Also, use old economy principles to grow your new economy business. We have listeners questions. Oh, sorry, one thing we have to confess. So those of you who have looked at our podcast recordings see that we're not using repeat audio headphones, and there is a reason for this. Obviously, I wanted to use them always on this podcast but, as you might know, we travel with this studio in a very small pocket, so we have bought foldable ones. But I promise you, now we have them here. I'm going to test if they fit in our case and then I'm going to buy three of them, but I really like using them here today, just for the record.

Lars: 36:01

Listeners questions. Yeah, this is my favorite part. We've collected some listeners questions, so that always brings in a new perspective. The first one is Baudewijn from Sombake, from Jack Savier. He first says I'm really impressed with how you've built a brand and I even believe you've done it once or twice before with really cool campaigns. It must have been quite exciting at times to make these investments. What were your most thrilling moments in this process?

Dorus: 36:31

That's a cool question. I think one of the most thrilling moments was the very first campaigns that we started doing on social media and just seeing the response, because that's the first test. It's not only seeing if you can sell, but you suddenly are reaching a lot of people, and especially back in the days when online marketing was really cheap. You start reaching a lot of people that don't know you, but also don't know your friends.

Dorus: 37:06

You know they're just third party and also there's a lot of engagement you know, so we got a lot of shit also in the comments, right, but that's fun to see.

Lars: 37:21

Feedback.

Dorus: 37:22

Yeah, feedback and seeing why people hate this.

Lars: 37:24

There's a lot of hate, obviously on social media.

Dorus: 37:28

I really enjoyed reading all these things and also trying to see if there was anything that might be bigger than just one guy who's angry at his laptop to come up with solutions. And I think the second thing that comes to mind is our campaign with Willem from the Opposites, which we launched last year, which was our first.

Dorus: 37:56

I'm not sure if you would call it a professional campaign, but it was a lot more professional than what we are used to do. We hired a very good photographer and we made this script and it was really cool. Nice, yeah, professional campaigns.

Lars: 38:14

So the first part is seeing people out there, you know, wearing your stuff without even knowing them directly, listening to the comments and then, obviously, doing a professional campaign. Boudvin, thanks for asking this question. Your next question is from a gentleman you know really well because he is your co-founder, Tom Landers. Actually he said in two questions, but I use this one because I think it's interesting. He asked what has been our biggest fuck up, the most expensive lesson we learned. It's nice, he makes it our biggest fuck up not your biggest fuck up.

Dorus: 38:45

Most expensive? Yeah, that's definitely not sure if I'm going to mention them, but there's this party in Delft that plans CEOs, sort of interim CEOs, in your firm. At some point we weren't able to raise money, we weren't growing, we were still stuck in our business model and we felt that we tried everything. So then these guys approached us to get sort of these hired guns in your company and we figured, well, I think we were just basically insecure after trying so much, after a while you start doubting yourself as a co-founder and you think, well, maybe let's have someone else have a shot, someone with big experience.

Dorus: 39:49

So we got these two guys in and we learned from them. Definitely, but it was so expensive and in the end we sunk all our money into this project and we should never have done that. I think we should have been far more critical.

Lars: 40:12

Okay okay, that's sound advice and people that want to know this party can probably read that you directly. But the general advice is, if you hire external senior people in, it has to work in the end. So how would you do that differently than next time Because you might want to hire a senior in your team? So what would you do differently for a next situation?

Dorus: 40:34

I think that it's easy to if you're not performing the way you want to perform, or at least it's easy to start doubting yourself, and I think it's also very healthy to doubt yourself at some point, but then again, never forget that you know by far and most about your business. I've seen it times and times again when people with a solid track record got in and did some, took over some of our strategy or some of our online marketing and you think, okay, well, maybe they can and they are very confident that they will know to boost your sales.

Dorus: 41:17

Usually they don't, because they don't know your clients. They don't understand. They think they understand your market, but usually they don't and they don't understand the games. They have never spoken to potential customers maybe three, you know, but it's usually friends and you know so much more about your business than whoever, so that's also. The upside of this is that it regained our confidence. We had these big shots and we saw that they couldn't produce any growth for us and that we knew a lot better what we had to do than we thought we did.

Lars: 41:54

Okay, great question there, tom, and I think if you want to know more, reach out to the doors and they'll probably tell you who this company is. Final question from Hans Klaver. Hans is from Obsession. Which other product based company would you like to inspire with the way you have built your product? That's?

Dorus: 42:17

cool.

Lars: 42:21

And maybe this company is listening, who knows?

Dorus: 42:27

Yeah, I still think it would be really cool to see this in laptops. I know you have what's it called frame or so there is a laptop company doing this.

Lars: 42:38

Okay, modern laptop Like in the old days right.

Dorus: 42:43

Yeah, that's funny. It's actually going back to how things work, but then again I would say, our business model is radically different. So, also offering free repairs forever, a lifetime warranty. That's something that has never been done before in electronics, as far as I know.

Lars: 43:00

So what would be which company, if they apply your examples, would you be really proud of? They would do that.

Dorus: 43:12

I think if Apple would do this, for instance the biggest, would be really cool. If you're listening Apple, go do it.

Lars: 43:18

All right, cool, great question down here from Hans. Great answer. So soon we'll see all the principles of repeat audio in Apple and then we're all happy people. Doris, thank you for sharing your story with us here today. Thanks for having me.

Lars: 43:32

I think it gave us great insights in how you run the business, what you've gone through ups and downs. We'll put some links that we talked about in the show notes, so go check them out there, and we always close off with a song. Well, for a music lover like you, it must be difficult to choose a song, but you've chosen one. Would you like to explain which song and why I've chosen?

Dorus: 43:50

the rhythm of love from yes, and I've been a fan of yes, I think my well, not my entire life. No, from when I was starting to truly listen to music, which was about when I was in my teen years, you know. And so after a while, I got my first record player and this is the very first final that I bought, and I bought it also because the final you should look it up it's a big generator and it's just, it's such a cool album cover. Cool.

Dorus: 44:27

So it was mostly for the music, but also a bit for the album cover.

Lars: 44:30

I just really wanted to have this one on myself, Cool. All right, we're going to listen to that one. Thank you for listening. Like this episode? Please like, subscribe, share it with friends, and then we keep making this content until next time.

Speaker 6: 44:42

Keep it up the situation sometimes falls apart. Then it miss ecstasy. Your charms are frozen, no emotion falling through your eyes the moment you get more in danger.

Speaker 4: 46:08

Time just goes, moving shorter, dead feeling overwinding me, to the rhythm of love to the rhythm of love.

Speaker 6: 46:33

To the rhythm of love. Should I escort you to your secret?

Speaker 4: 46:42

needs climbing up your ladder, I need more anyway will do, anyway will do when they cast your dark control. So hurry as you crawl around the room. Can I see you? Nighttime fever burning down your high, take me over, lose me through the rain to the rhythm of love, oh, to the rhythm of love. To the rhythm of love. To the rhythm of love. Morning day to the rhythm of love, midnight fever, morning day dream, midnight fever music. This should keep you from your point of vision Needed to go in this situation. I am so used to the rhythm of Morning daydream In the evening room. Morning daydream, midnight, in the rhythm of love, the rhythm of love, the rhythm of love, the rhythm of love.