Scaling with Mycelium: How Bob Hendrikx changes the funeral industry with Living Coffins

Lars: 0:01

Today, we dive into the story of Bob Hendricks, the CEO and founder of Loop Biotech, creator of the world's first living coffin made from mycelium the root of a mushroom and in this conversation, we will explore innovating in the funeral industry, scaling up in mushroom tech and building a company with your fiancé.

Lars: 0:22

My name is Lars Crama and you're listening to episode 57 of Start to Scale, the podcast, where we dissect the scale-up stories of remarkable founders, and we have a remarkable founder here in front of us. Let me introduce the inventor, biodesigner, entrepreneur, bob Hendricks. With a background in architectural engineering, bob strives for a world in which we work in symbiosis with nature, and in 2020, he founded Loop Biotech on a mission to revolutionize the funeral industry through coffins that turn people into plant food. Yes, you heard that correctly, and Bob's journey received widespread attention, making headlines in Wired, cnn, the Guardian and the BBC, and Vice Media even awarded him the title of Human of the Year. His backers include Dragon's Den investors, peter Schoen and Sean Harris, and we have a scoop, as he just closed a 2 million crowdfunding round last night to propel the business into its next phase of expansion. Welcome, bob, and congratulations.

Bob: 1:20

Nice. Thank you very much for having me.

Lars: 1:22

Very nice to have you and we were talking about this, raising the funds right, and you closed last night. You know what time, what happened.

Bob: 1:29

It was seven o'clock, everybody was looking at the screen because it was like a big counter. We were like refreshing, refreshing, and then it hit the two million, cool. And then it was like, yeah, we did it guys.

Lars: 1:40

Nice, very yeah, we did it guys. Nice, very nice. So we'll talk about what you're going to do with that equity money coming in, but first I have to ask you one question. You were well, you're Human of the Year. That's a quite notable achievement. My one question is do you know against who?

Bob: 1:58

you were competing. I don't know, it was when we first launched and we did our first sale, Like whoa, the first human used a mushroom coffin. That just went viral. And then Vice was like, hey, we're going to name you a human of the year. And I was like, sure, nice thank you very much.

Lars: 2:15

Very cool. Have they done that ever since?

Bob: 2:17

I think every year they do it, but I do think it's not like one person, it's like in five categories, so there are also five other. I don't normally say that, but now we're being honest.

Lars: 2:27

Yes, we're all honest here, Okay cool. Yeah very nice, very nice, so I'm really excited to hear your journey. We've met on multiple occasions. You've actually spoken at, I think, fuck Up Nights during Upstream Festival. You were at the On a 0 Team event, so we've seen each other briefly many times. But now it's time to finally dive into your story. We'll start with four statements that you can answer with true or false. Are you ready?

Bob: 2:52

Oh yes, let's do it.

Lars: 2:54

I'm a designer first, entrepreneur second.

Bob: 2:57

Oh my God, this keeps me up at night, but I do think.

Lars: 3:01

Designer first yes, Within four months after coming up with the idea, I buried the first body in a mycelium coffin. Yes, true, running a company together with your fiancé is a bad idea. False, and the final one dead people scare the shit out of me.

Bob: 3:21

At first. Yes, Now I'm at ease with it.

Lars: 3:24

Okay, okay, so you've learned over time. There we go. Maybe start with your origin story. Can you explain the inspiration behind Loop Biotech and then, I think, your journey that led to creating the world's first living coffin.

Bob: 3:39

Yeah, of course I was studying at the Delft University of Technology architecture. I just got back from sort of a gap year turning a broken down house into self-sufficient home in detroit, where you bought a home for a thousand dollars and I came back feeling a little bit depressed because I was like, okay, we're gonna save the world.

Bob: 3:57

climate change is coming and all we can think of is more solar panels. Like this is not fundamental. So I was a mission I want to create a new generation of architecture back then that we could plant, that could grow, that was fully alive so living architecture. So I went into that, did a material research on like how coral grows, how bees build their homes, and I stumbled upon mycelium mushrooms and I learned how fast you can grow materials from it. And at that point I was graduating and I built like a living home, one to two scale, presenting it at the dutch design week okay, in eindhoven, right.

Bob: 4:34

That's the place where, yeah, yeah, all designers come together in eindhoven and then somebody came to me like, hey, bob, what, uh? What happens actually when my uh, when my grandma dies? I was like, yeah, my psyllium is a root structure of mushrooms. They're the world's biggest recyclers. They can turn dead organic matter into new life and actually give it to the other root systems. And while I was saying this like, oh my God.

Lars: 4:56

It was the epiphany.

Bob: 4:57

That was really the epiphany and I was like, okay, the mycelium wants to live under the ground, they want to recycle, help the soil. And what is a product beneath the soil? It's a coffin. So then it was like, boom, we got to do the coffin. But I was really scared at first because, yeah, a coffin, it's not really that. You think, oh, let's design a coffin. And my friends then, like they did normal jobs and especially in that early stage that you're really really insecure, you don't have much funds like this. This was a life decision for me. So I said to myself I'm going to do this one year and if I bury someone in one year, I'll continue okay and then that happened after four months.

Bob: 5:37

So it's like, okay, hell, yeah, let's continue.

Lars: 5:39

Yeah, so you set the target of a year and you did it in four months. It's's really interesting. I think we can learn a lot from taking it. Not only examples from nature, but also using nature to create products right, Because that's what sets you on this path and then lets you end up with the coffins. Whatever happened to the idea of the house? Did somebody else pick that up?

Bob: 5:58

Not that I'm aware of. I still believe in it. You can grow so many products with mycelium, yeah, but definitely looking at the market and the product market fits the coffin.

Lars: 6:09

Yeah.

Bob: 6:09

Because I wanted to keep the organism alive.

Lars: 6:11

Okay.

Bob: 6:11

And if you want to do that in architecture, you have like building regulations.

Lars: 6:14

Right, and your house changes over time.

Bob: 6:16

Exactly so, a little bit more impractical. And a coffin like from a design perspective it should decay. It's not the case right now, because people like to build coffins that never decay.

Lars: 6:28

So it made sense, nice. So actually, this product really fits with the structure of the mycelium and for those who have never seen mycelium or have no idea what we're talking about, maybe briefly, because it's the roots that are growing right. So can you just briefly explain how that works?

Bob: 6:43

Yeah, it's how it works. Yeah, so what we do, growing right. So, uh, can you just briefly explain how that works. Yeah, it's uh how it works, yeah, yeah. So what we do, um, it's almost like baking a bread. That's sort of the process. So we're more, uh yeah, bakery as I'd say that we do in our growing facility.

Bob: 6:54

So it's like you have a mold, you fill it up with, uh, raw material. We use, for example, upcycled hemp fibers. Okay, but it could be anything what they like to eat. Yeah, then you add it. Actually, it's called inoculate it with mycelium okay and then the organism starts feeding the substrate and while it's feeding it takes seven days it's creating like a three-dimensional network of all these tiny fibers yeah thereby sort of gluing everything together cool and if you stop that process at some point, you have like a hard and sturdy material.

Lars: 7:26

Yeah, it's really nice. We'll share a picture, uh, to one of your videos, I think in the show notes, for people to check it out. But basically it now also looks. Your coffin looks like a big cocoon, almost like it's a really nice white cocoon, like shape.

Bob: 7:38

We did a little redesign over time.

Lars: 7:40

Yeah, saw that. Um, I read somewhere that you've that more than a thousand people have been buried in your coffins to date. Maybe that's already more. Um, and you also signed a partnership with dela, which is, I think, one of the largest funeral directors in the netherlands. Maybe can you talk us through what has been your go-to-market strategy and then, more importantly, how has that evolved over time?

Bob: 8:00

yeah, definitely. Um. So, starting at the beginning, uh, I had this little prototype and I was like, okay, I just need to go to funeral uh entrepreneurs and see, like, what they think, and they were very enthusiastic. So I knew, okay, hey, there's something up here, yes. But then, looking in the funeral industry, it's pretty closed. It's a high margin market and, yeah, especially if you're an outsider, you you have no idea how the business model works a high margin market is good if you bring a product in right.

Bob: 8:25

Yeah, from a product perspective it's good, and especially since mycelium is like chapter one of the technology, so it is more expensive. Okay, so also that was of course from the business perspective a good market to dive into um.

Bob: 8:37

and then we had to make the choice, sort of like, hey, are we going to go b2c or b2B? And we learned that people don't really often purchase a coffin via a web shop, so we were a little bit early with that. And of course this new generation like why are they not buying it? But then realizing, yeah, people of 70 don't often use the internet anyway, so we switched to B2B. More. And now we have a good mix of B2C and B2B.

Lars: 9:02

Okay, and that's working out for us okay, nice, um, so then you talk. We just talked briefly also on how it's being produced, right, and and I saw some videos of what it looks like in your facility as you're scaling up. Anybody doing any kind of production work knows that there's significant investments going into infrastructure, resources, etc. Can you talk us through how you scale up this production process to get to the next level?

Bob: 9:33

Yeah, it was pretty hard, to be honest. We started at yes Delft, the incubator next to the TU Delft University. There we had a very small room of, I would say, 30 square meters. People from yes Del delft, if they're listening, they know the stories about coffins lying everywhere. So at some point we had to move out and now we're in a facility of 1200 square meters. Yeah, and the thing, it's all funding related, because in the end you know exactly which system you want, but it's 200 000 so you don't have the money, okay so you're gonna diy something, um, which is pretty shitty, yeah, but yeah, it sort of is with baby steps.

Bob: 10:11

So we went in and like, whenever we had money, we tried to buy the best possible option. Yeah, and then skill, and I'm now more talking of technology like mixers, cleaning, cleaning machines, climate technology, that kind of stuff.

Lars: 10:26

And then I think when we first talked, you also talked about kind of trying to figure out everything yourself versus using more proven methodologies. What is your learning there?

Bob: 10:36

Yeah, so definitely in the beginning we had the idea that we were the best in the world at everything Of course yeah, as a solid founder does. And we learned quickly that it is not super smart to try to develop all the technology yourself, but rather pinpoint on like, hey, we're going to specialize in this and all the other stuff we're going to how do you say it Buy?

Lars: 10:57

Yeah.

Bob: 10:58

So we made a big switch from make to buy, which was a really hard moment in our company because we were relatively young, our revenue was low and we had a lot of youngsters in from the Technical University of Delft most of us friends or via our network and they were like, yeah shit, this is not going to work out, we have too many people on the bus and actually we just don't need to figure out how to build the machine ourselves, we just need to purchase it. So that was a hard moment for us and we had to let go, unfortunately, of a lot of team members and then switch to more experienced team members and also more buying technology instead of making it Okay.

Lars: 11:37

What did you learn from that process?

Bob: 11:40

That hiring is the most important thing for a founder.

Lars: 11:44

Yeah.

Bob: 11:45

And you always hear it and you're like fuck off man. I don't like hiring Screw, that it can be that hard, but it's really hard because the thing that I learned is like the company we're building is changing, you need to recruit for that change and when the person starts that you're recruiting, the company already changed Right.

Lars: 12:01

And I also learned that the best mix is young talent and proven experience okay ajax 2018 even though I'm a psv fan okay, okay, a mix of young youngsters and experienced people, and then you get them in. Do you have vacancies at this moment?

Bob: 12:20

yeah, we have. Uh, I think there are now four open and uh like next week two or three will follow ah, okay, well, and next week, because you closed a funding round right, so let's dive into that right now.

Lars: 12:32

That's really nice, it's a really good moment to start in that's yeah, so come, come in. You'll find the the jobs on on the website of look biotech. You can also find them on hackyourcareercom, where we combine all startup jobs in the region. I think there's about 750 jobs. Go check it out. Um, let's talk about that funding part because, um, well, you had sean harris and peter schoon already as your investors. Um, you're now raising or you finished raising a 2 million crowdfunding. But I'm going to challenge you Because I read investors really found their way into what we call mushroom tech, right, infinite Roots. You probably know them German Scalab. They raised 58 million for their technology. Mogu raised 11 million. So my question is are you thinking big enough and what are you going to do with the 2 million?

Bob: 13:21

Nice, I like the question. The answer is is sometimes I think we don't think big enough um, but we're starting to learn um and the question?

Lars: 13:33

sorry, it wasn't the second question, I was so what are you going to do with the two million? So how are you going to use that?

Bob: 13:37

yeah, yeah, um. So what are we going to do with two million? Is we're gonna increase revenue in the netherlands and also lure a little bit towards europe. So we hired two experienced sales, uh, persons. One is familiar with the funeral industry so he has a lot of contacts, so that will help a lot because it's a it's a different breed of people and it's super nice to have an expert in and the other one will focus on international. So that will happen and furthermore, we'll scale up our factory. So we're going to buy a lot of machinery to automate, to make the products better, cheaper and faster, and that sort of is the main thing we're focusing on.

Lars: 14:14

Okay, and for those that have invested, you could see this also in the prospectus and also see how you're making money now, right? So what is the plan on scaling over the next couple of years? What are your targets that you want to achieve? By sales right, Because basically we just said you sold more than a thousand coffins. So what's your ambition?

Bob: 14:39

Yeah, so the goal for this year, like from talking from now to next year, our goal is to aim for the 1 million revenue selling 1,000 coffins and 3,000 urns.

Lars: 14:50

Yeah.

Bob: 14:51

We also have another product, forest Bands, but it's not in the KPI at the moment. So that's the goal, and if we achieve that, we hit the 1 million revenue. Yeah, you know as well, a lot of more funding doors will open. So that's also thinking big Like. If we hit that one like, our next round will be in the 10, 20 million. That's what we're aiming for, but for this phase it was too early to get that.

Lars: 15:15

Yeah, okay, so focusing on sales and scaling up production. Yeah, last night I also chipped in a little bit, so I'm definitely following your Welcome to the team in a little bit.

Lars: 15:29

so, uh, I'm definitely following your yay uh joining uh the team. Um, you talked about this already a little bit, but, um, I still want to ask the question for you personally. If you, uh, when you look at your own leadership capabilities, how have you changed over time? And you, you paused a little bit on uh I a designer or an entrepreneur how have you evolved as a leader?

Bob: 15:47

I think as a leader, I'm a builder. I like to run up front and try to inspire and how do you say it make people energetic, like enthusiasm. I have some lengths that sometimes I can be a little bit stubborn and sometimes I can go a little bit too hard.

Lars: 16:11

Okay.

Bob: 16:12

So that doesn't help.

Lars: 16:15

Well, it's the prerequisite for a good founder, right? Be a bit stubborn and go really fast and hard. Yeah, true.

Bob: 16:20

But it's important to bring everybody along. So I learn a lot about getting people involved, learn a lot about letting go. I can be a little bit yeah my way, I would like to see it my way, but also more admiring what people have to offer and be more flexible. So a little bit more of letting go. I also learned that if you just make good KPIs, letting go is a lot easier because together you've taken the dot on the horizon and you both have the same expectation. So that's what really helps. And what also really helps is having a fellow founder who is also your fiance and is really good at all the other stuff.

Lars: 16:59

Yes.

Bob: 17:00

So together I think we're a good team, yeah.

Lars: 17:03

Well, let's talk about that elephant in the room. I'm not calling your fiance an elephant, but she's the elephant in the room here, because that is interesting, right. Elephant in the room here, um, because that is interesting, right. So you were developing as a, as a founder. You were a single founder, yeah, and, as we all know well, investors don't like single founder companies, uh. So you get the advice. But then the other thing is don't start a business with your wife, or soon to be wife. So tell us how did that come? How did that story happen? And then I'm really curious how do you make it work?

Bob: 17:30

yeah, I was just. I went on a business trip with YesDel to San Francisco.

Lars: 17:35

Yeah.

Bob: 17:36

And there we've seen so many things, all the VCs, and everyone was like, yeah, go big, let's go, yeah. And I was like so pumped up, but everyone's saying like you can't be a solo founder. And I'm like I am a solo founder. So I said, okay, I need a solo office, I need a find a founder.

Lars: 17:52

So I started dating and I dated wait, so you started dating for a founder? Yeah, okay, yeah, this is a niche style.

Bob: 17:58

Yeah, we started dating for a founder and I had three uh yeah, solid people, but it didn't feel like the click. I couldn't really trust them and that was more probably my issue than their issue. So at some time I was walking with a coach higher from yes, delft and he told me like bob, what are you looking for in a founder? I'm like I'm so tired. I just look somebody. Look, I'm looking for somebody, just like my girlfriend and it's like bob, why didn't you ask her? Like no way. And then I asked her and we started working as sort of a test. I mean, I always joke like she's now, she was already working, but now she's actually getting paid because you know when you're at home and you're talking to your fiance or girlfriend or whatever.

Bob: 18:40

Um, so, yeah, then it happened and it was a super nice click and um, yeah, it really is a lifestyle. It's really intense yeah but for people who know me, they would understand that Bob Likes Intense so yeah, it's nice and the personal click was already there.

Lars: 18:56

But now there's also a business click, but then still I'm curious how do you switch off? Because I can imagine so. I'll give you a personal example. The reason I don't work with my wife is I'd like to keep these things separate, but she still advises me on many occasions, so technically she's also probably co-founder of whatever I do um, but we didn't ever formalize it. So how do you? How do you make that work in written, because I think people out there are listening. Yeah, how do you do it?

Bob: 19:26

I think what really helps is that we're really different persons. So where I'm more external focused, she's more internal focus in the company. Yeah, so she is really good with, uh, the finance, the operations, and those are the things that really do not give me energy and the things that, sorry that I'm doing is not giving her energy. So also already by nature there is a really good deviation, and at home we have sort of a rule that whenever we're home we don't talk about work unless you sort of have to check in. So if I have an issue, if I check my email at 11 o'clock which sometimes happens bad bob, don't do it then I'm in bed and like, oh shit, I feel really, yeah, fucked. And then I ask her like hey, I read something. I feel really annoyed, can I tell you this? And then sometimes the answer is yes, sometimes the answer is no.

Lars: 20:19

Oh well, that's strong.

Speaker 5: 20:21

When it's no, then the passive aggression comes in. Yeah, oh, wow.

Bob: 20:25

That's sort of how we make the rules, but yeah, sometimes it is not possible. And it's just really shitty. Yeah yeah, sometimes it is, it is not possible and it's just really shitty. Yeah, so it does have disadvantages, but the advantage is really nice, like you're always with your favorite person in the world there you go yeah and all the adventures you make together. It's like all the things we experience with, like the fundraising with the investors with the team.

Lars: 20:46

Yeah, yeah, she's really. Yeah, you're really close to each other. And then how does the and maybe we should ask your team. But how did the team respond? Or how do people respond if they know that you're soon to be married?

Bob: 21:00

They want to come to the wedding.

Lars: 21:01

Okay, that's a good sign.

Bob: 21:04

Yeah, how did they respond? We always we don't really in the beginning, we always tell it up front.

Lars: 21:08

Okay.

Bob: 21:09

But now we don't even tell it and it's just like, yeah, it's a fact.

Lars: 21:12

Yeah.

Bob: 21:13

They can hear us sort of kibble of it too, because with your fiance you're talking differently than with your team members, so sometimes we see them a little bit laughing like.

Lars: 21:23

Yeah, yeah yeah. But it's interesting, the most durable companies in the world are family-owned businesses and I know that in the tech industry we've always been looking for you know these typical founder types, et cetera, so maybe you're setting a new trend here for making sustainable businesses that are run as a family business.

Bob: 21:40

That would be cool Because also in the funeral industry it's like super common to have a family business. Yeah, definitely, yeah, yeah.

Lars: 21:46

Wow, okay, Well we found a link here. Uh, very nice, um, cool, um. Before we go to the break, final question um, what has been your biggest fuck up to date?

Bob: 22:02

he's now going through all of his fuck ups all the fuck ups like this, this, this, I think the from a business perspective is, uh, trying to, yes, so not early enough, switching from making to buying so trying to reinvent the wheel yeah yeah, it was, I think the looking back and also, um, from a team perspective, not hiring experienced people uh, soon enough.

Bob: 22:27

But yeah, you're, you're super young so yeah, you don't have the experience, but yeah, that's what I would advise younger ones like hire the expensive persons earlier uh, but then how do you make sure that you can pay?

Speaker 3: 22:40

I mean because I think in the early days you also don't have the money right, yeah so how would you do that in hindsight?

Lars: 22:45

what would you do?

Bob: 22:46

in hindsight, what is really nice right now is the crowdfunding campaign that people have shares. In the beginning was also like super hectic, like oh no, then people have shares in your company and they leave, etc. And what I really learned from uh, from sean, from sean harris, is really having trust and uh, building together yeah and uh benefiting together, right, so that's, that's what we're more and more implementing, yeah yeah, and then with shareholders you can always do vesting right.

Lars: 23:12

So for those, that have never heard about that. Look it up. But making sure that you invest your equity over, you get your equity over time if you perform. Okay, good yeah hiring the right people as soon as possible, as soon as you can, and then also the part of the production. I think those are great pieces of experience. Slash advice, thank you for that.

Speaker 5: 23:34

We'll go to a quick break and then we'll be back. You're listening to the podcast of Up Rotterdam. We help startups scale and grow their business by offering access to talent, access to international markets and access to capital. Curious how we can make the network work for you?

Lars: 23:47

Go to uprotterdamcom this podcast was made possible by the city of Rotterdam and we're back. Wow, it's so great to listen to your story how you started and how you got where you are today, and I think it should be an inspiration also for other designers or bio designers to see how you can make a scalable product with smart people around you and some great investors. Let's talk how you unwind, because entrepreneurship is tough. It's hard work, uh, especially when you're building with your partner. I suppose, um, can you share any specific habits or rituals that you have, uh to say, to stay sane mentally and physically?

Bob: 24:30

um, yeah, definitely, um, yeah. So first acknowledgement it is hard, it is uh lonely sometimes. You have the highs, you have the lows. Um, I've written some texts from back in the days to really show how I felt. I never posted them, but I have them like a diary, yeah, so I can look back later on like holy shit, shit, I was really down.

Lars: 24:51

Nice. So do you do kind of daily journaling, or was it just?

Bob: 24:55

No, it was just some time Okay, just some time when I felt really down. But what do I do to keep sane? I've invested a lot in learning about the habits, so I did like the whole Tony Robbins package.

Lars: 25:11

Oh, wow.

Bob: 25:11

I like America yeah he's a little bit extreme, but a little bit.

Lars: 25:16

Yeah, he's very extreme.

Bob: 25:18

Yeah, so I did all the courses like literally in the first year of loop I did all the courses like everything on finance, health, etc. That really helped. From that moment I went vegetarian, I went non-alcoholic, um, so that really helped. I started working out a lot, uh, which is often hard because if you have meetings till 11, yeah what are you going to work? Um? The classic cold showers. It's going really well every day, um, even in the weekends. And meditation. Meditation now is a little bit harder because I'm getting really impatient. In the beginning I did a 10 day silent course in austria at the beginning of loop at the beginning of loop I was on fire.

Lars: 25:57

I was like I'm gonna do this, this, this 10 days in silence. My wife did three days in silence and I it almost killed me because she was living with me.

Bob: 26:05

So anyway, long story sidetrack, but 10 days in silence, yeah, wow and then, at the end of the day, I do gratitude and wins.

Lars: 26:12

Oh.

Bob: 26:13

So say like five wins. But these are the things. Sometimes they don't happen.

Lars: 26:18

Okay.

Bob: 26:18

Because yeah, life happens.

Lars: 26:20

But this almost sounds like one of those perfect Instagram influencers. This is really a lot that you are doing. This is actually my bare minimum.

Bob: 26:29

Wow, I have a list of like sort of a 20-20 amount list of things I want to do.

Lars: 26:34

I keep track of them.

Bob: 26:36

I give them like numbers. So if it's green, it's really my habit.

Lars: 26:39

So, for example, the cold shower, that's so easy, and it's also relatively simple to implement, right? Because you just shower anyway. Yeah, put it cold.

Bob: 26:46

But then, for example, some things that are a little bit more difficult, like the gratitude at the end of the day. Sometimes at the end of the day, it's like hey guys, everyone and you just forget it.

Lars: 26:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah, nice Working on that. Yeah, great list. And then congratulations on the zero alcohol. For how long now? Yeah, three years, Three years okay, I must admit, I probably drink, like many others, too often and too much. So what is it like to switch to Xero?

Bob: 27:13

From a health perspective it's really nice. From a social perspective it's really shitty. Okay, especially in the beginning. I'm coming from the Delft environment so I had like a student home et cetera, and everybody drinks and they go out on Friday and then until 10, 11, it's fun. But then you hear stories twice and you're like, okay, this is my cue. But yeah, the hardest thing is your circle of friends changes and yeah, that is sometimes really lonely, because then you don't really have the friends anymore that align with your values, but you also don't have the new ones.

Bob: 27:49

So, it's like hanging in between and like, yeah, yeah, but I literally never. How do you say? Look back. Sometimes I think about it, like, for example, new year, oh, shall I drink? And I'm like, no, this streak is too good yeah, it's not stopped now.

Lars: 28:04

No, I think, particularly when you combine it with all those other things you do right with exercise and and, uh well, the meditation, although that's, I heard, sometimes a bit tough. I find meditation really tough, by the way.

Lars: 28:14

I just can't do it, Only guided meditation, by the way. So I think it's the inspiration fathers right that are thinking about quitting alcohol and know what you sign up for. So your environment changes a little bit and you probably also see the changes, because then indeed a bottle is no much fun after 11 o'clock when everybody gets drunk and you're sober, yeah, okay, yeah, good insight, and maybe it would have changed if I was single oh I'm actually.

Bob: 28:39

Sometimes I talk with my girl oh, would this actually happen if I was single, because I had a really stable girlfriend, of course, yeah, so for me that maybe also made a little bit easier.

Lars: 28:47

Yeah yeah, a good point, good point, but I don't know, yeah, okay, well, so uh, we, we thought about bringing champagne here to celebrate your, uh, your win.

Bob: 28:50

We didn't so it was a good point.

Lars: 28:50

Good point, but I don't know, yeah, okay, well, so, uh, we, we thought about bringing champagne here to celebrate your uh your win we didn't, so it was a good, it was a good call um, very nice um. And then you mentioned also, final thing, you mentioned friends and people to hang out. So who do you get inspiration from? Are there other founders that you like meet up with or learn from?

Bob: 29:09

um, yeah, I have some founder, uh friends like yuri from peter pod, julian somnoks yeah, julian is one of the podcasts as well, okay yeah, and actually yuri will come up soon yeah we. Obviously he has some good stories, he has a very good story.

Lars: 29:22

He's getting better over time. So, yeah, he's writing a book really.

Bob: 29:25

Yeah, he should yeah, so I know them all from back in the delft days yeah um, so from the yes delft community there are some friends now from Orange Wings. They have a tribe because they invest in a lot of early stage startups, so we see them a few times per year. But then of course, you have my normal friends, which is sometimes also nice, because then it's yeah, I'm not Bob the entrepreneur, I'm just Bob.

Lars: 29:46

Bob, the Bob, yeah, which is also sometimes.

Lars: 29:53

But yeah, you can't go too deep into like, oh, the, this happened at work and it's like, yeah, okay, but you've created a circle of people around you. I think that's what we see with other founders as well is, you're working so hard, it's lonely, you're working on your own stuff, so find people around you to. Yeah well, call it friendship or call it business friendship. We strongly believe in peer connections, yeah, people helping each other out. So I think the sean harris circle is probably probably a good one, and you're also invited, of course, to the in peer connections, people helping each other out. So I think the Sean Harris circle is probably a good one, and you're also invited, of course, to the Rotterdam dinner, again this year happening at Upstream, 28th of May I'm looking at Lisette here. Yes, 28th of May, cool.

Lars: 30:26

So next up, final part, is that we go to the listeners' questions. It's my favorite part always because it brings in different perspectives. Um, one of them and I think you know him really well, uh, duke urbanic. I think many people know him from the delft and also the rotterdam ecosystem. He says hi. He also says, bob, you are a super creative mind. And then his question is what would you have done if those loop cocoons hadn't been feasible. In other words, what was your plan B?

Bob: 30:55

Ooh, what was the plan B? Nice question, dude. Thank you for asking. What was my plan B? Now? Actually really funny story. I had this idea of having a sustainable startup. So my other idea was either to go to a venture capital and learn from vcs how they do it, because I understand very early it's finance in the end, so doesn't matter really what kind of product you have, in the end it's finance.

Lars: 31:21

So five times why you get the money. Yeah exactly.

Bob: 31:24

um. So I actually almost applied for an internship while I was graduated at a VC. That was my lowest moment, but then I said, no, I'm going to do my own, which was really nice. Other things what would I have done? I had some other ideas, to be honest, in the pipeline, but they were a little bit less commercial friendly. Okay.

Lars: 31:50

I saw your personal website where there's a lot of yeah, stuff, more design, yeah, design stuff, yeah okay, I like that angle. So see how things in life sometimes change. Change I mean in a, maybe in a parallel universe. You are now somewhere on the side to us, uh, as a vc, yeah, all right, cool, looking back by the way, that would have been a awful decision.

Bob: 32:08

I think you made the right decision. You, by the way, that would have been an awful decision.

Lars: 32:12

I think you made the right decision. You know, the one thing that VCs often forget is that we feel that also in negotiations right, you feel that one has an advantage over the other. But I always keep saying without founders, vcs have no role to play. So it really starts with the founders and with the companies that they're building, and then the VCs really should be supportive to that. And I think sometimes, when you're also at drinks, investors forget that every now and then because they think that whoever has the money has the power. But it's the founders that hold the power to their business, and I think also that should be the way. Anyway, just wanted to put that on the record.

Lars: 32:49

So thanks, duke, and we should catch up. It's been a long time ago, uh. Second question is from mark slagers. Uh, he is the founder of rotter swam. I know mark slagers very well. Um, he has a great question. First he compliments you. He says I'm very much inspired by your product and your journey and also by your exit strategy. Not sure if that was in the prospectus, perhaps.

Bob: 33:10

Yeah, it is in there.

Lars: 33:12

I didn't read it well enough. His question is how do you safeguard your sustainability goals in the event of an acquisition by an organization with more economic objectives?

Bob: 33:23

Well played, little Bob thought of that. It's in the shareholder agreement.

Lars: 33:28

Okay.

Bob: 33:28

So there's a sentence there.

Lars: 33:30

And what does it say? That Loop should focus on um, I don't know, but it's, it's like related to loop should focus on sustainability and making a but if a company would be acquired, if a whole loop would be acquired by, let's say, a big corporation, would that still hold?

Bob: 33:55

I haven't thought this through, so, from my point of view, like I'm here for the coming years, decades, okay, so that was the only thing I could do like to settle it in. Yeah, we also of course have like the steward ownership and that kind of thing, but I haven't looked into that.

Lars: 34:12

Okay.

Bob: 34:13

Yes, that's the only thing.

Lars: 34:15

Okay, so basically you're just not selling so far.

Bob: 34:18

Yeah, yeah Just keep the company running Cool. But I think it's so aligned with our vision, like also from a commercial perspective. If somebody would acquire us and change the mission like that, that is a poor business. Yeah, it would make no sense.

Lars: 34:34

Yeah, okay so it's built into your core yeah core business, cool. Um, I have a really practical question. This is uh yip krama, who everybody knows because he's my son. He's 11 year old, he listens to this podcast, uh, every now and then and I told him this story and he actually remembers, uh, his grandfather passing away last year, um, and they were drawing on the cask on the coffin. So his question is can you also draw on them, like on the wooden ones?

Bob: 34:59

yeah, yeah, the question is yes, they're. They're white like cram cream color, um, and we also will also, uh, sell as as a service, biodegradable paint. Very good so like little children, they can paint on it, or also grown-up children can also paint on it. There you go, guilty. Yeah, I did too. Okay, great.

Lars: 35:17

Well, see, I thought about that. I knew that. Thank you, jip, for asking that question. See you tonight. Final question is from Roy. I don't know which roy, but his question is um looking ahead, what are the long-term goals and aspirations for loop biotech and how do you see the company evolving in the years to come?

Bob: 35:36

nice question. Um, our vision all the way from above is um, we're here to enrich nature and we really believe that we want to put the human remains back into the cycle of life.

Bob: 35:49

So, basically, we would like to turn humans, when they die, into trees yeah and right now that's not the case, because, yeah, you're in the soil, you're either cremated, there's a lot of negative footprint associated with it, and I don't know about you guys, but when I'm at a cemetery, it's not my favorite place, while nature cemetery, of course, is a forest, so why couldn't we have these nice lush parks that are also cemeteries, integrating death more into our society, which I think is a really healthy thing, because the absence of death makes it really a big thing.

Bob: 36:23

What I learned little sidetrack from working in this industry that the more I'm surrounded by death, the more grateful I am to be alive, so it actually makes you happier.

Bob: 36:33

My assumption was I'm getting depressed, I'm going to see dead people like this is not good, but the opposite is true yeah and so that is our vision, like turning, turning humans into compost and doing in the netherlands uh, doing it in europe, doing it in the Netherlands, doing it in Europe, doing it in the USA, building factories all around the world, working with local ecosystems, local mushroom species and local substrates and thereby growing this new generation of products that has a positive footprint instead of a negative footprint.

Lars: 37:00

Very nice and I think that's close to your strategy. And when you talk Sorry, so many questions coming out of this one. No, let's go with the first one. So, being closer to death, I think I mentioned to you briefly that in my study times I worked for Matrice Uitvaartbegeleiding. The KVK business challenge, I think we participated in and basically asked you for four months to spend time with a company, and in this case was helen teunissen from um.

Lars: 37:30

I saw that industry and indeed I think there's a lot of changes happening to what you're saying is um, that we should be, you know, in a way connected to death, and I think some cultures do spend more time on this than than we with their typical. I don't know anybody who's been at a typical dutch funeral with plucky cake, which is like a piece of cake, and it really goes really fast. I think there's more and more people trying to have a different experience. But then also, to your point, cemeteries need to change. So that's a big mission. Anyway, just wanted to throw that in. The real question I have is you mentioned the US and other countries, so you've been to Silicon Valley. Where is that in your strategy? When do you want to?

Bob: 38:09

go abroad, I think in two years. So our first goal is, of course, really have our sales and operation running in the Netherlands Already. We're working in Europe with Austria, germany, uk, and new countries will come in the coming years. But as part of her growth strategy we noticed like hey, in the USA, yeah, there's an insane market, the people are ready, the law is ready, we're already getting a lot of inquiries, so people are already wanting the product.

Lars: 38:39

So it's just actually a pretty simple logic decision, but then technically you would want to produce it there locally. Right Also to reduce, yeah, reduce.

Bob: 38:46

so the first phase and that that comes with, like from a little bit perspective, like our whole goal is to have a positive footprint, and then the reality is how you don't have money to have a positive footprint because it's just really expensive yeah sometimes you have to make a sacrifice. So in our strategy we said okay, the first initial step to go abroad is we need to ship, because we're not going to, I'm not going to.

Lars: 39:07

Set up a production site there.

Bob: 39:08

I'm not going to convince an investor like hey, give me 20 million and. I'll fix it. So first we need to have the sales from those parties and already we learned that those parties actually would like to invest themselves in those factories.

Lars: 39:20

Right.

Bob: 39:21

Because they're, For most of the times, the funeral site parties we're working with. They're the biggest in their country.

Lars: 39:27

Yeah, so they could actually build. They're happy to invest to set up a local version. Oh nice, so you could have a network effect, I think also there from your….

Bob: 39:34

Yeah, so that's a little bit of the plan.

Lars: 39:36

Nice. That reminds me of the story of George Birch from Oyster Heaven. I'm not sure if you've seen him.

Lars: 39:46

He, him, he's also building the orange wings. Yeah, yeah, yeah, uh, we also did a podcast with him and he also talked about how he's setting up factories in local regions to make sure that the fishermen there can put in the reefs, etc. So check out that podcast episode. It's also really interesting if you're into this topic. Uh, cool, um, it's so nice to finally dive into your story, bob. Uh, I've heard bits and pieces and obviously read every now and then, um, and followed you around. I'm now officially also part of your stock, so definitely following what you're doing. Next, keep us up to date, and I would say you probably have a lot of calls to answer from press who are calling you now. We just heard that, so we'll read all about you coming up next. Thanks for sharing your story. As always, we close off with a song that you select. Would you like to explain which song you selected and why?

Bob: 40:31

Yes, first of all, thanks for having me.

Lars: 40:33

My pleasure.

Bob: 40:35

I really like to talk about this stuff, so feel free to send me a message if you heard this. I had a song. It's a little bit emotional song for me. It's called Light family high and we used to uh this was maybe in somewhere in 2000, when I grew up in eindhoven with uh three older brothers so we're in total with four we used to go on holiday, winter sports, and then you always had like the cds and this was our favorite song. Um, so this reminds me of driving with my parents, like feeling safe in the back, hearing this song on our way to winter sport, which was like the highlight of the year, which still is. So sometimes when I'm either feeling really low, I put it on, or when I'm feeling really high, I also put it on. So it's a really nice song.

Lars: 41:24

Cool, that's a great introduction. Thanks for bringing that song. Thank you for listening, and while you're listening to the next song, please do us a favor leave a rating in the app until next time. Keep it up.

Speaker 4: 41:45

When you're close to tears. Remember. Someday it'll all be over. One day we're gonna get so high. Though it's darker than December, what's ahead is a different color. One day we're gonna get so high and, at the end of the day, remember the days when we were close to the edge and we'll wonder how we made it through.

Speaker 3: 42:32

And, at the end of the day, remember the way we stayed so close to the edge, and we'll remember it was me and you, cause we are gonna be forever, you and me. You will always keep me flying high in the sky of love. Don't you think it's time you started doing what we always wanted? One day we're gonna get so high.

Speaker 4: 43:19

Cause even the impossible is easy. When we got each other One day we gonna get so high, high, high, high At the end of the day. Remember the days when we were close to the end and we wondered how we made it through and at the end of the day, we remember the way we stayed so close to the end.

Speaker 4: 43:54

We remembered it was me and you cause we are gonna be forever, you and me you will always keep me Flying high in the sky of love High high, high, high, at the end of the day, remember the days when we were close to the end and the wonder of how we made it through. And I, at the end of the day, remember the way we stayed so close to the end.

Speaker 3: 44:40

But remember it was me and you, cause we are gonna be Forever and me We'll always keep Flying high in the sky Forever and me, cause we are gonna be forever, you and me, with a whiskey flying high in the sky of love. Cause we are gonna be forever, you and me, we'll always keep it flying high in the sky of love. Thank you for watching you.