Lars Crama: 0:00

Today, we dive into the story of Josefine Groot, co-founder and CEO at Q-Layers, the leading scale-up in robotic coding machines. In this conversation, we'll explore why we need to fix energy inefficiencies in industry, how to combine parenthood with scaling up, and what off-grid living teaches us about nature. My name is Lars Krammer and this is episode 56 of Start to Scale, the podcast where we dissect the scale-up stories of remarkable founder, and we have a remarkable founder here in front of us. This is Josefine Groot. Josefine Groot in Dutch.

Lars Crama: 0:35

With a master's degree in complex systems management and engineering, josefine Groot went from national boxing champion to scale-up CEO, advocating for a sustainable future. Before reaching the age of 21, she had already established and sold her first business specialized in circular products. Until in 2017, she co-founded Q-Layers alongside Ruben Geutjens. Her significant contributions have been widely recognized through numerous accolades, including the prestigious European rising innovator and EY's emerging entrepreneur of the year awards. Despite her industrial pursuits, josefine has a love for nature and lives off-grid in a self-built tiny house with her partner and their daughter. Welcome, josefine, wonderful to have you here.

Josefien Groot: 1:19

Thank you, what a nice introduction there you go.

Lars Crama: 1:22

I did my best and we tried to well try to put everything in it, but it's almost impossible with your LinkedIn resume, so I try to summarize it, maybe start here. I saw on your LinkedIn that you competed on a national level both in boxing and in powerlifting, so obviously the first question is which of those two prepared you best for entrepreneurship? Both?

Josefien Groot: 1:45

yeah, and I actually did more sports. So when I grew up I did handball also on quite a high level.

Josefien Groot: 1:55

I also did crossfit, and the crossfit came after boxing because, I actually, when I was in high school I didn't want to go to university. I thought I'm going to be the global box champion, you know, boxing champion. And then I went to university because I thought, yeah, I cannot train constantly, so let's do university next to training. And yeah, so I was training constantly. But then at one point I got ahead like a brain concussion and it was quite a significant one, also because I was quite shocked because it happened during training but I was not aware, so I was just training. And then I got home and the next day I couldn't even type you know, no word anymore.

Josefien Groot: 2:47

And then I realized like okay, if I'm gonna continue with this, it will impact my, my brains. Do I want that?

Lars Crama: 2:55

No, so I stopped with boxing, which was yeah quite a big decision if you're competing on a national level.

Josefien Groot: 3:04

Exactly exactly, and also you know having dreams that are even bigger than that. So I quit with boxing and then I actually also started my first company.

Josefien Groot: 3:17

I found that university was quite nice actually so I focused more on that and I got into crossfit, which is actually really great sport because you can compete. And with my boxing background and also my background in handball, the subject or the component of crossfit which was my weakness basically was powerlifting, and that's when I started my master program in Delft. I got into powerlifting because I thought, yeah, that's my weakness.

Lars Crama: 3:53

That's what I'm still missing. I'm gonna be the best in powerlifting.

Josefien Groot: 3:57

So then, within a year, I also competed on a national level in powerlifting and I already knew that that would never be. You know really something that I would continue with, because I don't have the. You know the best body for powerlifting. You need to be way more compact to be really good, and I'm quite tall for my weight so.

Josefien Groot: 4:18

I'm not an ideal powerlifting, but it was still very interesting. So, in general, if you look at my experiences in sports, the thing that I learned most is just how to handle challenges or setbacks, but also, of course, just how competition works and, yeah, in general, how a lot of discipline that you need. You know, training two, three times a day, yeah.

Lars Crama: 4:55

So a lot of things Understanding yourself and figuring out your weaknesses and then still building on those right and making them better. I think that's the best, the best introduction ever, I think into entrepreneurship. So a big lesson there Sports as a preparation for entrepreneurship. You're one of the most energetic, positive founders I've come across, so I'm really excited to dive into your story here today. As always, we start with a few statements that you can answer with true or false. You ready.

Josefien Groot: 5:19

Yes.

Lars Crama: 5:21

In 10 years time, q-layers will be a billion dollar company.

Josefien Groot: 5:24

Yes.

Lars Crama: 5:26

That was a big yes. Number two I get more energy from creating a new system than to change an existing one.

Josefien Groot: 5:35

First one.

Lars Crama: 5:36

Okay, I've missed too many pivotal moments in my daughter's life.

Josefien Groot: 5:43

No.

Lars Crama: 5:44

The fourth one Tech beats nature in the end.

Josefien Groot: 5:49

No.

Lars Crama: 5:50

Okay, we'll talk about that in a moment. Maybe let's start with your origin story. You founded Q-Layers with Ruben together back in Delft. Maybe tell us where did it all begin? How did it start?

Josefien Groot: 6:01

Yeah, that's an interesting story. We both actually lived in a student flat in Delft. Ruben was my neighbor and back then I just sold my first company. I was in the first year of my master's program in Delft and I was thinking, okay, what's next? And during my bachelor I already learned that if I really wanted to have a maximum impact, I should focus on industry, Because in industry there's so much waste and there's so much that we need to change over, thinking about energy, transition and circularity, and you know all the trends and the transitions that we're currently in.

Josefien Groot: 6:43

So I decided that I wanted to focus on industry in my next company and I was mind mapping okay, what am I going to do? And then Ruben came over for dinner, actually with my housemate, and my housemate already said, like this is an interesting guy, you have to meet him. And then we were having dinner and Ruben said you know, I invented the technology to print microstructures. I said yeah, okay, but what can?

Lars Crama: 7:17

you do with it.

Josefien Groot: 7:19

And Ruben said. Well, with those microstructures I can actually imitate certain structures that are out there in nature. For instance, a shark can swim faster due to microstructures on its skin. That reduce the drag with water and with those microstructures. I'm able to print those microstructures that you can find on a shark's skin and print them on industrial services like ships and aircrafts, to make them more energy efficient.

Josefien Groot: 7:45

So, reduce fuel consumption or increase the energy efficiency in case of a wind turbine, and I thought that would be super interesting to work on because it doesn't have a lot of impact on the supply chain. So you can use the same coating. The asset doesn't need to change. The only thing that you change is the way the coating is applied.

Lars Crama: 8:08

Right the application.

Josefien Groot: 8:09

Yes, the application. So I thought this is interesting and it can have a significant impact on the total industry, or even society, if we would implement this at a large scale. So yeah, but I also like to, you know, start my own things. So I thought, okay, nice idea. But you know I'm thinking about my own company, but in the meantime I would like to help you.

Lars Crama: 8:35

Yeah, okay, so that's how it started. That's how it started Nice, and then, I think, for the specialist out there. So it's kind of biomimicry that you use, right, so it's understanding some of the old structures in nature, like a shark's skin, to then implement in big industry. And then. So that's the interesting part, because we'll talk about your off grid living later on in the conversation. But you know, having such a big focus on nature, what is it like to now be innovating in a well, let's say, traditional industry? What is it like for you?

Josefien Groot: 9:06

Yeah, that's an interesting question, because when we started this company, we were just, you know, in Delft. Especially when you're when you're studying at the university, everything is possible. I still believe everything is possible. But if you're going into the industry, then you're facing established structures and systems and supply chains, value chains, and that those are quite difficult to change because there are a lot of stakeholders that have, you know, different incentives. They're motivated because of their yeah, because of so it's quite difficult to change industry.

Lars Crama: 9:46

Yeah. And then the question is but you go in, you're very successful doing international business all over. So what's your go to market? How do you go and change these businesses?

Josefien Groot: 9:55

Yeah, by tapping into the supply chains that are already there.

Lars Crama: 10:00

Yeah.

Josefien Groot: 10:01

So we never try to change any system that is already in place. Of course, we're still very innovative because we're changing the process.

Lars Crama: 10:09

Yeah.

Josefien Groot: 10:10

Currently, large industrial services are painted manually.

Lars Crama: 10:13

Right.

Josefien Groot: 10:13

We do it automatically, but the paint itself stays the same. The asset stays the same. The contractors that now use a roller are going to use our robot, so it's not that we're competing with them.

Lars Crama: 10:27

Okay.

Josefien Groot: 10:28

So they're radically changing or disrupting the chains that are already in place. Right.

Lars Crama: 10:34

You're really improving the way that they work and I think you save. On one hand, I think you save paint right and on the other side, you make it safer because people don't have to hang in these ropes but they can send a robot instead, exactly Okay. So the lesson there is you know, see what this industry is already doing, try to fit into the existing infrastructures, a place, et cetera and then you go forward, which is interesting, because when we had this pre-conversation, you know onboarding customers and growing really fast. I think the company has grown. You also run into moments where it's more tough and more difficult, and I think you mentioned one moment back in 2022, one of your big customers had to cancel a very large contract. So, in a company that is growing and going really fast, how do you deal with a challenge like that? Maybe you can elaborate a bit on the case.

Josefien Groot: 11:21

Yeah, but there was a very difficult situation because it was a huge contract and as part of the contract there were also certain obligations at our side to grow the team, yeah, and they you know they they canceled and or need to just terminate the contract, which was not aligned with anything that was in that contract. And, yeah, a significant cash flow also coming out of from that contract revenues but you know very good margins was a very good deal.

Lars Crama: 11:58

So it was like a 40 million plus deal, right? Exactly, yeah, it's a serious, serious deal that you had.

Josefien Groot: 12:03

Yeah, so because there were a lot of minimum order quantities of robots that were planned for in certain years. So it was a huge contract. And well then, suddenly you need to change strategy, you need to in in source certain activities that you would normally, that they would normally do, because it was a partnership agreement. So a lot of changes and also very limited time to almost reorganize everything, but I'm very proud that we actually got through it, and even got through it a lot better than how we were, you know, before.

Lars Crama: 12:50

That's interesting. So how did you get better? Because this is kind of a challenge thrown at you. And then how? Do you get out better.

Josefien Groot: 12:56

Well, this contract was huge from a financial standpoint was really like a fundament for growth.

Lars Crama: 13:02

Yeah.

Josefien Groot: 13:03

But at the same time, because it was such a huge contract, it also required a lot of of our resources to make it successful, and that also led to some dependency and, at this point, because of a strategy where we actually very much focus on independence and different revenue streams. So for every region or even specific country, we have a different distributor, different partners for different industries. So we're way more independent and that also allows us to scale way more than how we would scale this on that contract.

Lars Crama: 13:47

So in every situation there's a new opportunity out there, and I know you're all about catching opportunities.

Lars Crama: 13:53

So that's something that if you, maybe we I looked also on on your fundraising process a little bit and it's if you go to the room. So for those listening, go to the room or find it at uprottenhamcom. You've collected quite an interesting list of investors along the way. I think it started way back with unique. I've seen NPEX not long ago, quite recently, with half the market. People might look at it and go like you're not going to stand there at VC route. So what is your strategy, what has been your strategy on funding and how does it work for you?

Josefien Groot: 14:21

Yeah, yeah, that's a good question. So indeed, we don't go for the typical route, you know ABCDE and so on. We just look every time like, ok, do we need additional funding or not? Is it a good opportunity or not? But we're not really going, for, you know, scaling really fast. I also, ruben and I at this point are still the majority shareholders, and I really like that. The investors that we have on board. We have two investors on board and they have a minority position. I also just really like them, so I would go for dinner with them and for me, that's very important because it's not only about, you know, doing business and that it financially needs to be a good deal. I really believe in relationships and that it needs to be a good connection to be successful together. So then also in our funding rounds, we didn't we actually never went for the best deal, but we went for the maybe not financially best deal, but the best deal from a relationship point of view.

Josefien Groot: 15:39

Yeah, yeah just the best connection. So we actually since last year we have a new COO on board. He's very experienced and when he joined our first Styrko so the meeting with the shareholders a while ago he was like what is happening? This is way too much, too relaxed. You know, I said, but that's that's why I chose them.

Josefien Groot: 16:03

You know, I don't I'm not, I didn't become an entrepreneur to then have other people tell me what I need to do Then then I'm not gonna. Then that there will be a huge energy drain for me. I would not be able to work like that. So at one point I will get out of the company or we sell it, but I would never go, for you know that you get into a certain phase where you're, where you're losing your freedom.

Lars Crama: 16:30

Yeah, and that comes back. I think that's remarkable how you do it. And I think there's founders listening out there going like, oh shit, I don't have a you know much to say anymore at those at those meetings because the investors are making the shots. But you did mention that one day Q layers will be a $10 billion dollar or your sorry, a $1 billion dollar or euro company. So I think you already gave a little bit of a segue into that, because I think as the company grows, also the leadership grows and changes right. So you were there from the start. You're the founder, you've been building it up, you've been seeing opportunities, now growing also into a place where you probably trust a bit of leadership to others probably. Maybe can you elaborate a bit on kind of your process, also your personal process of perhaps letting go and going into the next phase?

Josefien Groot: 17:19

Yeah, well, letting go is a tough thing, but definitely I really realized that when the company grows, different types of leadership is needed. And that's what you also, I think, see when looking at successful companies, that definitely the ones that that skills successfully that there were leadership changes, which is very natural, because certain leaders focus more on, you know, expansion and growth. Well, I'm like that. And then and then you have to consolidate and you need to make sure that financially, you know you go more on the EBITDA and you more on the operational management and making sure that what you created is actually managed properly and well, we already went through certain phases like that.

Josefien Groot: 18:15

But I think now, at this point, to get to the next phase, we're definitely at the point where you know new leadership is needed and our COO that joined last year is playing a huge role regarding that, because he has the operational experience and really understands what is needed to get our company to the next level. And me as a leader, yeah, I can be very chaotic, so, because I go from left to right and you know and that some people can handle that, but when the company grows, also, like the people that know me, that already worked with me for a few years, understand me. But for the new ones they're like what is happening, you know, like she's all over how many people work at the QLAs now.

Josefien Groot: 19:07

Now about, I think, 30, 35. And we were a bit bigger, about 45. But then we had, you know, the reorganization. And the funny thing is that since then we are outsourcing more, also in our sales model, in our operational model we're having the local partners globally. We outsourced our production and that actually is working quite well because a lot of the operational costs are now flexible.

Josefien Groot: 19:39

So we can scale up scale down depending on the demand, and our core is still in place, which is mainly focused on the R&D and all the very important processes around that. That allows our scalability, but we really focus actually more on our core than before. So that's a smart approach.

Lars Crama: 19:59

Yeah, as with more people, more complexity is added right. We always think more people is more execution power, but it also gets more complex.

Lars Crama: 20:07

So if you can organize your business model in the way that you have partners. That makes a lot of sense, but still then your role will be evolving and you have great people around you, taking it to the next phase. In the intro I already talked a bit about parenthood and obviously combining parenthood with running a company. When I asked you the question about did I spend enough time with? Well, I was in a different way with your daughter, Missing Frivolet. You thought a little bit, but you said you were enough. I think we all know that parenthood is a balancing act. I'm a father of two, so my daughter is 12, my son is 11, a bit older, I think, than your daughter, but also running a company. Scaling a company, you know, asks a lot. So how do you manage? How have you managed combining scaling a company and, you know, running a family, being a mother?

Josefien Groot: 21:00

Yeah, I found that super difficult actually. So, you know, during my pregnancy my daughter is now free, but during my pregnancy I continued working, I think a few hours before the you know the birth process started. I was still sending my last email. You know, in the evening at eight and then, I think, at one in the night it all started, and then I took five days off and then I was closing an investment round.

Lars Crama: 21:36

Wow.

Josefien Groot: 21:37

So the term sheet for investment rounds was assigned like, I think, two weeks after, or maybe less, like nine days after no way. I gave birth Okay.

Josefien Groot: 21:49

And it was nothing like now. I have a very good CFO that that would be able to handle these things, but at that point I was the one fully in charge of that process. There was no one else. Wow, so, yeah, and then the first months I was still a lot at home, but then still closing that funding round and then also managing everything else and no, it was like tough. And then after a few months, fully back at the office and then, yeah, that really kicks in, because then you're like, yeah, still full in the hormones, still giving breastfeeding or breastfeeding still, and yeah, you know, just very tough. And also, I think, still like what is, of course, the what you have in mind constantly is that, okay, I'm not a lot of time at home. So then at the moment when you are at home, then you really want to be there. So I think, still, my main focus is my company and my daughter and everything else, I don't care, it's on

Josefien Groot: 22:58

a low pace. But that also means that, yeah, when you have your me time, because if you're not working and then you're spending time with your daughter, you know, small little girl, that can be quite intense. So I found it super difficult actually, and I think last Friday also, with the International Women's Day, I was at the discussion and there is also now that everyone thinks like, okay, I need to work, you know, and I need to be a mother and work. I cannot just be at home and be a mom. Well, I think it's, you know, it's really cool for the women to just choose to be at home and just be there with their child.

Speaker 3: 23:45

And.

Josefien Groot: 23:45

I had the luxury that my partner took that role. So, he really, you know, made the decision that I could focus on my company and he actually skilled down his activity so he could be the stable factor for our daughter. No, pick her up from grandma, like the small things, but also, just, you know, cooking during the weekday, so he's really, yeah, great support for me.

Lars Crama: 24:15

Otherwise it would be impossible, yeah, very difficult, yeah. And then what would be your advice for other young entrepreneurs trying to, because there's you mentioned the Women's Day and, I think, the conversation that go on. What would be your advice to other female founders on this topic?

Josefien Groot: 24:32

Yeah, yeah. So sometimes I'm called by a female founder that is in her pregnancy and I said take your maternity leave, Take it, you know don't sign, you don't make your agreements your agreements while you're giving birth or self-taught Exactly, Just make sure that already during your pregnancy you're just making sure that the management team is stable. And you can be out for a few months. Because I didn't do that, because I thought, yeah, I can do it all you know.

Josefien Groot: 25:03

I always did and I fixed it. But am I proud of how I did it?

Lars Crama: 25:08

No, probably not Okay. And then you talk about the me time, which is the third part, right? So you say company, your, your family, and then the me time. So how have you solved me time?

Josefien Groot: 25:18

now Still a challenge, but you know I value sports a lot, so I tried to to you know, fit that in somewhere. I also meditate, I do. I value meditation a lot, so the evenings are important or the early mornings are important, and now my daughter is also free, so she actually almost joins me on these activities in the weekends. So, yeah, now it's, it's way more already balanced. Yeah, when you're the age of three.

Lars Crama: 25:53

then things become a little bit easier. Well, there's going to be more difficult parts, I can tell you from my own experience. But great, I think we've already covered quite a few topics, I think, on your business and also how you stay sane in all of this with some advice. We'll go for a quick break and then we'll be back.

Speaker 4: 26:13

You're listening to the podcast of Uproaderdam. We help start up skill and grow their business by offering access to talent, access to international markets and access to capital. Curious how we can make the network work for you? Go to Uproaderdamcom. This podcast was made possible by the city of Uproaderdam, welcome back.

Lars Crama: 26:33

We've covered well, I think, how your sports have helped you become a better entrepreneur. We've learned about the business, how it's grown, how you've optimized your business model, how your team is growing. I think we've covered so many things. Maybe go into your personal life first for a moment. I said in the intro you're living in a self-built, off-grid, tiny house with your family. I can only I saw some pictures, actually, I think on an Al's LinkedIn post of yours. How does this lifestyle, this off-grid lifestyle, align with your values? And then I'm also curious how does that influence the decisions you make on a daily basis, personal or in business?

Josefien Groot: 27:12

Yeah, interesting question. So the choice or the decision to live in a tiny house was really a well thought through decision. We're living in a tiny house that we have built ourselves, completely off-grid, mainly because of just the way that we see that the world and society are transitioning and we feel that it's very important to live in a way that you're close to nature. So we found a way to live where actually the place inside or in houses limited, because it's tiny Small yeah, and that actually allows us to be outside constantly, even in the winter.

Josefien Groot: 28:06

We make fire. We were very close to the seasons, to how those influence our decisions and behavior. We pay attention to growing, to our food, so we grow our own food. We have pigs, we have chickens. So, yeah, the way we live actually allows us to be very close to nature. And also, just living off-grid is amazing, an amazing feeling to just be completely self-sustainable. And so we actually have solar panels on the roof, we have a battery in the house, we catch the rainwater from our roof and then goes to a storage, we filter it, we use it in the house. It's completely clean, probably cleaner than the water that you can get elsewhere. That goes through the pipes and everything, and it's just like when all the prices went up the electricity and the gas no clue, please tell me what's going on, because I don't see it in my bills.

Josefien Groot: 29:17

But that's a small thing actually, because the choice has not been. We didn't make this decision to live in a cheap way or whatever, but really just very idealistic and close to nature.

Lars Crama: 29:33

I think it's also great because this will be the imprint that your daughter has when she's young. She'll probably take that with her for the rest of her life. And being outside there's a lot of research out there that being close to nature, but also being close to the seasons and understanding getting the sun, getting the cold, does a lot of things for your immune system, for the way you look at the world. I think that's a great upbringing. I think a lot of kids out there wish there would be outside more and are now locked inside with games. Actually, my son is probably gaming right now as we speak.

Josefien Groot: 30:04

And it's a pity right, Because a lot of people are conscious about this now, but still a lot of people are living in the cities and they're outside a very limited amount of time.

Lars Crama: 30:20

Go out there, go build your own tiny house out there. Before we go to the listeners' questions, there's one thing we wanted to ask you. We talked about your business model, but I think there's also things changing in the business model of Q-Layers. Can you quickly elaborate, perhaps for our hardware founders out there, what you're changing with Q-Layers?

Josefien Groot: 30:39

Our business model evolved through the years. When we started Q-Layers, I really wanted to deliver already robots as a service, but then more as a paper use system so the robot codes a square meter and then you pay per square meter.

Josefien Groot: 30:57

But then, because of the fact that our robots are so expensive, we moved to just selling the equipment, which worked really well for us. We sell the equipment to distributors mainly that then locally commercialize the technology. They have the warehouse, they can store the spare parts, they have the right technicians with the know-how to support their clients, the contractors that operate the robot in the field, in the best way possible. But at this point, actually next to our standard sales model, we just kicked off early this year so a few months running now A rental model specifically for Europe.

Josefien Groot: 31:38

Now, only exclusively and we're setting up a separate entity wherein we can really rent the robots to clients also including support remote or on site, and we already see a lot of traction with that model. Nice.

Lars Crama: 31:56

Cool yeah, new model A robot as a service, RAS that's what it's going to be Exactly.

Speaker 3: 32:03

Maybe the.

Lars Crama: 32:03

URL is still available. We don't know. We also learned about how your business model is changing, which I think is a great addition. And then it's time for our listeners' questions. We always ask people around us and around you to send in their questions. We have some really interesting people here today asking you questions. The first one, lech Bakkenhuizen van Den Brink. He is from TechLiep and actually we go with him to the Hello Tomorrow Deep Tech conference next week in Paris. His question is what advice would you give to startup founding teams with a STEM background and a long time to market? Advice regarding equity, inclusion and diversity? So, from your perspective, what can and should they do from the start and what to do later on, in the later phase?

Josefien Groot: 32:50

There are a lot of questions in there, I think his main question is what is your advice for DEI?

Lars Crama: 32:55

So equity, inclusion and diversity for companies like yourself.

Josefien Groot: 32:59

Yeah. So I think in general, with whatever you do, it's important to really focus on your own strength and confidence and don't let any superficial things set you or hold you back. So I am operating in mill dominated industries from the start. In the beginning it was a bit difficult because I felt different, but at one point that was quite fast actually that I realized that it's actually an advantage. It works really well in sales. It's all about leaving an impression, whether that's a positive or negative one. If you stand out, then you leave an impression behind. So it actually works really well if you are a bit different and I think, especially for founders investors are also looking for, especially if you're early stage and it's less about the financials and the actual performance of the company, it's all about the story and how much you believe and are confident about that story and how you can explain it well, and then it doesn't matter what your background is or how you look like.

Lars Crama: 34:15

So then you're saying founders should actually use whatever diversity advantage they have in their storyline to either get customers or investors, or a combination of those.

Josefien Groot: 34:25

And especially these days, there's so much attention for this subject, so you can definitely use it in your advantage, even leverage it Okay that's a great tip.

Lars Crama: 34:35

Thank you, lech, for asking this question. See you next week in Paris. Next question is from Wouter van Rooyen. His question is as a startup in exclusive partnerships with a few very large corporates, what is it like to develop technology for industrial players, and how do you keep financing this?

Josefien Groot: 34:59

So just having partnership with large corporates. I have now quite some experience with that and it can be quite complex. It's all about understanding how the corporations or companies work, who is making which decision, and then doing a lot of stakeholder management, and I'm actually quite good in that.

Lars Crama: 35:23

What's the secret trick? Corporates need a lot of time to get to the deals and to manage the deal, so what's your secret in stakeholder management?

Josefien Groot: 35:31

Just trying to get in touch with the right people that are making the decisions. So there doesn't always need to be the top, but you just need to understand their processes.

Lars Crama: 35:41

Right Understand the DMU and know who to influence.

Josefien Groot: 35:44

And budgets.

Lars Crama: 35:46

And then I think his question was also about how do you finance it then. So do you refinance the deals, or how does that work?

Josefien Groot: 35:51

So from the start actually, we always worked with prepayments from clients, and some actually large, like, for instance, one of the largest winter by manufacturers out there actually just donated almost 300,000 euros for our development without getting anything in return. So we did a lot of prepayments, but also just donations from partners and potential clients for our development, just making it so interesting for them that they think I need to invest in this, because this is going to be the next thing.

Speaker 3: 36:31

And I want this in two years when it's ready.

Lars Crama: 36:33

Without equity, without equity. Well done, that's a nice way of refinancing Without exclusivity Nothing in it.

Lars Crama: 36:41

Wow, great negotiated there you are. Great question, wouter. Thanks for the answer. The next one is Robin Hoogstraat. We have long questions today, so listen carefully. I've been seeing you around the ecosystem for many years already, starting from the moment when the unique investment was announced at the Innovation Quarter Year event, and recently you raised another million from a group of Dutch investors related to the Rotterdam Port. I think they're called Haverdraken. His question is how difficult would you deem the current fundraising climate to be, given that you're already around for a while?

Josefien Groot: 37:18

Yeah, so this also. I can answer this a bit to what we already, in line with what we already discussed. So we never did typical fundraising, I think, for we did now really two VC rounds, but it was more like okay, it makes sense to do this, now there's interest and let's do it. But we never really saw just raising funds as our main strategy. So we also never experienced difficulties with that Because we only see it as one of the tools that allows us to grow.

Josefien Groot: 38:03

So whenever we need money, the first choice is always clients, and then it's okay. What can we do to optimize our finance? Maybe look at suppliers, partners and so on, and then, when there's no other choice, then okay, maybe let's raise some funds so we can do this or that, but it's never the main strategy.

Lars Crama: 38:24

Right, so you are not impacted that much. Kind of similar story to your tiny house not being susceptible to the energy prices changing. You just find a new way to grow your house.

Lars Crama: 38:36

You're growing your own food, creating your own income streams. Great question, robin, and I think here you have the answer. So you build a sustainable way of funding yourself. The fourth question is from a really interesting gentleman. The other ones are also interesting, but this is Frank Gorter. I spent two sessions with him in the Velna Wutselbos, which is a forest that creates food. Great guy, go look him up. Velna, we do sessions what do you call it? I think tank sessions there but he's also a big promoter of food forests and a connector. So his question is around that. He says small promotion in our Food Forest podcast the link will be in the show notes Our central topic is shared reality. He says food forest arise from people who have ideals to then later naturally become a part of our landscape. And his question is because he knows you're also investigating food forest how could we reach people who do not share these ideals yet? So his question is how do you basically get people that are not involved in food forest yet? How do you get them excited about it?

Josefien Groot: 39:47

Yeah, yeah, that's an interesting question. Let me think about it, Because there's a lot of angles that we can go into. But for me, if I just specifically zoom in to what I am now creating around my tiny house because we live in a tiny house of grit, but I'm also working on our own piece of land, which is now just a grass field somewhere in the northern part of the Netherlands, and I'm working with the municipality to really turn that into, you know, a primary culture, kind of you know living, combined with sustainable organic food production, and one of my goals is then, if we live there, to not only just eat from the land ourselves but also share it with the wider community. And that land is actually located in a rural area with a lot of agricultural companies that maybe really think like, what are they doing there?

Speaker 5: 40:53

That's really strange, you know.

Josefien Groot: 40:56

But we are really thinking about making it a fun and interactive land, so also we're playing ground for children and that people can come and get their foods for a very limited price. I don't have the exact ideas yet, but I'm thinking of maybe that you just weigh your vegetables and then you pay something and then making it very attractive for people that are actually not interesting. And then they come and they see wow, this is actually really cool because this is, on, you know, a very limited amount of land.

Josefien Groot: 41:30

They are creating this amount of food production and it's very low in price compared to what you buy in a supermarket. So then maybe I think the wider society that is now thinking, okay, crazy people are also getting interested in it.

Josefien Groot: 41:48

And that's a very interesting angle, because that's what I also try to do with Q-Days and I think we should focus on in technology. Development in general is okay. For me it's all about, you know, nature and living in harmony with nature. But we can use technology as a tool to, because it will take time before people change their behavior and they get more conscious. It takes years, you know, but with technology we can make things that are sustainable or circular cheaper than the traditional way of doing things, and then you have the economics benefits which make it interesting for the wider society. So then you're doing something nice and good for the whole planet and you're taking people with you, just basically based on the economics.

Lars Crama: 42:38

Yeah, and then it's work. I mean, that's what we've all learned, also in circular economy, right? People don't buy something because it's circular. They buy it because it's nice, healthy, friendly and affordable, and then the business model works. So I think your two points on making it accessible so I mean really practically making sure that there's a playground in your foodstool, boss probably makes sense and making it affordable Great tip. So we hope that your food forest will be available soon. Fingers crossed on that, and I highly recommend go check out Frank and his mission. He's connecting food forests all over the Netherlands. Thank you, frank, for that question. See you soon in your Velna foodstool post.

Lars Crama: 43:16

Final question, and we left this one for the last, it's from Sebastian, who is your partner, and you mentioned him already on taking care of your child and making sure that you both are very successful. I think he has a beautiful question to ask. His question is if this were your first day on earth in the same body, with all the knowledge of this life clear in memory, a fresh start, what would you do?

Josefien Groot: 43:46

Nice question. Yeah, what would I do? So I would immediately focus on protecting the rainforest and all the natural lands, for instance the Amazon rainforest, and also making sure that a lot of the agricultural lands or lands that are now used in an unsustainable way are transformed to forest area where people can live in. Doesn't need to be tiny, just off-grid, sustainable circular houses close to their own food production and local production of resources.

Lars Crama: 44:32

Wow see Well, maybe we see a part of your next part of your life mission here, because you're still you're not 30 yet, right?

Josefien Groot: 44:39

No 29.

Lars Crama: 44:40

There you go. Great question, sebastian, and I think it's an awesome answer. It's also complex, though. I'm here a boere since three years now. I guess it's also complex to have your own farm and basically eat the food from your own farm, but it's so nice to do and also to educate the people around you. So I fully hear you Cool yeah, there we go.

Lars Crama: 45:04

So we had all the questions. Yeah, we're through the questions and actually that also brings us to the end of the conversation. Thank you so much for sharing your story and I think we've touched on many different things, sorry for the listeners and not always been this structured, but I think it was a lot of interesting stuff because you I think you've shown that you can actually connect a lot for nature and regenerating the world, making positive impact, while also, you know, making a lot of impact in existing industries with your company Q-Layers and I think that's an inspiring example for other founders and also some practical tips on how to combine it with parenthood a lot in there. Thank you for that conversation. Now, we always close off with a song that you selected, so would you like to explain which song you've chosen and why?

Josefien Groot: 45:48

Yeah, so the song is called the Power Is here Now and it's actually a great song because it's all about that. You know, in our reality there's time and there's place. You know there's. You know the specific position that you're in. But if we think about time, there's a lot of power in the now and basically the present or the past and the future are both present in the now and if you can tap into that and you become conscious of that, then there's a lot of magic in that now and that this song is about that and how we can use that just being in the now to create magic on Earth.

Lars Crama: 46:41

Beautiful. Well, and be in the now with this song. Thank you for that. Thank you for listening. If you liked this episode, do us a favor and while you listen to the song, leave a rating or a comment. Spotify Rappel helps us keep making this content Until next time. Keep it up.

Speaker 3: 47:00

Ooooo, ooooo, ooooo.

Speaker 5: 47:30

The power of love is here now. The power of now is here now. The power of you means here to create magic on us. The power of love is here now. The power of now is here now. The power of you means here to create magic on us. The power of love is here now. The power of now is here now. The power of you means here to create magic on us. The power of love is here now. The power of now is here now. The power of you means here to create magic on us. Let the water wash away your tears let the fire burn away your fears.

Speaker 5: 48:51

Let the wind blow into your life such faith and trust all. Let the earth hold you, take care of you and nurture you all the power of love is here now. The power of now is here now. The power of you means here to create magic on us. The power of love is here now. The power of now is here now. The power of you means here to create magic on us. The power of love is here now. The power of now is here now. The power of you means here to create magic on us. The power of love is here now. The power of now is here now. The power of you means here to create magic on us. Let the water wash away your tears. Let the fire burn away your fears. Let the wind blow into your life such faith and trust all. Let the earth hold you, take care of you and nurture you.

Speaker 3: 50:43

The power of love is here now.

Speaker 5: 50:47

The power of now is here now. The power of you means here to create magic on us.

Speaker 3: 50:58

The power of love is here now. The power of now is here now. The power of you means here to create magic on us. The power of love is here now. The power of you means here to create magic on us.