Revolutionizing Funerals With Living Coffins

Lars 0:01

Today , we dive into the story of Bob Hendricks , the CEO and founder of Loop Biotech , creator of the world's first living coffin made from mycelium the root of a mushroom and in this conversation , we will explore innovating in the funeral industry , scaling up in mushroom tech and building a company with your fiancé .

Lars 0:22

My name is Lars Crama and you're listening to episode 57 of Start to Scale , the podcast , where we dissect the scale-up stories of remarkable founders , and we have a remarkable founder here in front of us . Let me introduce the inventor , biodesigner , entrepreneur , bob Hendricks . With a background in architectural engineering , bob strives for a world in which we work in symbiosis with nature , and in 2020 , he founded Loop Biotech on a mission to revolutionize the funeral industry through coffins that turn people into plant food . Yes , you heard that correctly , and Bob's journey received widespread attention , making headlines in Wired , cnn , the Guardian and the BBC , and Vice Media even awarded him the title of Human of the Year . His backers include Dragon's Den investors , peter Schoen and Sean Harris , and we have a scoop , as he just closed a 2 million crowdfunding round last night to propel the business into its next phase of expansion . Welcome , bob , and congratulations .

Bob 1:20

Nice . Thank you very much for having me .

Lars 1:22

Very nice to have you and we were talking about this , raising the funds right , and you closed last night . You know what time , what happened .

Bob 1:29

It was seven o'clock , everybody was looking at the screen because it was like a big counter . We were like refreshing , refreshing , and then it hit the two million , cool . And then it was like , yeah , we did it guys .

Lars 1:40

Nice , very yeah , we did it guys . Nice , very nice . So we'll talk about what you're going to do with that equity money coming in , but first I have to ask you one question . You were well , you're Human of the Year . That's a quite notable achievement . My one question is do you know against who ?

Bob 1:58

you were competing . I don't know , it was when we first launched and we did our first sale , Like whoa , the first human used a mushroom coffin . That just went viral . And then Vice was like , hey , we're going to name you a human of the year . And I was like , sure , nice thank you very much .

Lars 2:15

Very cool . Have they done that ever since ?

Bob 2:17

I think every year they do it , but I do think it's not like one person , it's like in five categories , so there are also five other . I don't normally say that , but now we're being honest .

Lars 2:27

Yes , we're all honest here , Okay cool . Yeah very nice , very nice , so I'm really excited to hear your journey . We've met on multiple occasions . You've actually spoken at , I think , fuck Up Nights during Upstream Festival . You were at the On a 0 Team event , so we've seen each other briefly many times . But now it's time to finally dive into your story . We'll start with four statements that you can answer with true or false . Are you ready ?

Bob 2:52

Oh yes , let's do it .

Lars 2:54

I'm a designer first , entrepreneur second .

Bob 2:57

Oh my God , this keeps me up at night , but I do think .

Lars 3:01

Designer first yes , Within four months after coming up with the idea , I buried the first body in a mycelium coffin . Yes , true , running a company together with your fiancé is a bad idea . False , and the final one dead people scare the shit out of me .

Bob 3:21

At first . Yes , Now I'm at ease with it .

Lars 3:24

Okay , okay , so you've learned over time . There we go . Maybe start with your origin story . Can you explain the inspiration behind Loop Biotech and then , I think , your journey that led to creating the world's first living coffin .

Bob 3:39

Yeah , of course I was studying at the Delft University of Technology architecture . I just got back from sort of a gap year turning a broken down house into self-sufficient home in detroit , where you bought a home for a thousand dollars and I came back feeling a little bit depressed because I was like , okay , we're gonna save the world .

Bob 3:57

climate change is coming and all we can think of is more solar panels . Like this is not fundamental . So I was a mission I want to create a new generation of architecture back then that we could plant , that could grow , that was fully alive so living architecture . So I went into that , did a material research on like how coral grows , how bees build their homes , and I stumbled upon mycelium mushrooms and I learned how fast you can grow materials from it . And at that point I was graduating and I built like a living home , one to two scale , presenting it at the dutch design week okay , in eindhoven , right .

Bob 4:34

That's the place where , yeah , yeah , all designers come together in eindhoven and then somebody came to me like , hey , bob , what , uh ? What happens actually when my uh , when my grandma dies ? I was like , yeah , my psyllium is a root structure of mushrooms . They're the world's biggest recyclers . They can turn dead organic matter into new life and actually give it to the other root systems . And while I was saying this like , oh my God .

Lars 4:56

It was the epiphany .

Bob 4:57

That was really the epiphany and I was like , okay , the mycelium wants to live under the ground , they want to recycle , help the soil . And what is a product beneath the soil ? It's a coffin . So then it was like , boom , we got to do the coffin . But I was really scared at first because , yeah , a coffin , it's not really that . You think , oh , let's design a coffin . And my friends then , like they did normal jobs and especially in that early stage that you're really really insecure , you don't have much funds like this . This was a life decision for me . So I said to myself I'm going to do this one year and if I bury someone in one year , I'll continue okay and then that happened after four months .

Bob 5:37

So it's like , okay , hell , yeah , let's continue .

Lars 5:39

Yeah , so you set the target of a year and you did it in four months . It's's really interesting . I think we can learn a lot from taking it . Not only examples from nature , but also using nature to create products right , Because that's what sets you on this path and then lets you end up with the coffins . Whatever happened to the idea of the house ? Did somebody else pick that up ?

Bob 5:58

Not that I'm aware of . I still believe in it . You can grow so many products with mycelium , yeah , but definitely looking at the market and the product market fits the coffin .

Lars 6:09

Yeah .

Bob 6:09

Because I wanted to keep the organism alive .

Lars 6:11

Okay .

Bob 6:11

And if you want to do that in architecture , you have like building regulations .

Lars 6:14

Right , and your house changes over time .

Bob 6:16

Exactly so , a little bit more impractical . And a coffin like from a design perspective it should decay . It's not the case right now , because people like to build coffins that never decay .

Lars 6:28

So it made sense , nice . So actually , this product really fits with the structure of the mycelium and for those who have never seen mycelium or have no idea what we're talking about , maybe briefly , because it's the roots that are growing right . So can you just briefly explain how that works ?

Bob 6:43

Yeah , it's how it works . Yeah , so what we do , growing right . So , uh , can you just briefly explain how that works . Yeah , it's uh how it works , yeah , yeah . So what we do , um , it's almost like baking a bread . That's sort of the process . So we're more , uh yeah , bakery as I'd say that we do in our

Scaling Production ... with Mushrooms

Bob 6:54

growing facility .

Bob 6:54

So it's like you have a mold , you fill it up with , uh , raw material . We use , for example , upcycled hemp fibers . Okay , but it could be anything what they like to eat . Yeah , then you add it . Actually , it's called inoculate it with mycelium okay and then the organism starts feeding the substrate and while it's feeding it takes seven days it's creating like a three-dimensional network of all these tiny fibers yeah thereby sort of gluing everything together cool and if you stop that process at some point , you have like a hard and sturdy material .

Lars 7:26

Yeah , it's really nice . We'll share a picture , uh , to one of your videos , I think in the show notes , for people to check it out . But basically it now also looks . Your coffin looks like a big cocoon , almost like it's a really nice white cocoon , like shape .

Bob 7:38

We did a little redesign over time .

Lars 7:40

Yeah , saw that . Um , I read somewhere that you've that more than a thousand people have been buried in your coffins to date . Maybe that's already more . Um , and you also signed a partnership with dela , which is , I think , one of the largest funeral directors in the netherlands . Maybe can you talk us through what has been your go-to-market strategy and then , more importantly , how has that evolved over time ?

Bob 8:00

yeah , definitely . Um . So , starting at the beginning , uh , I had this little prototype and I was like , okay , I just need to go to funeral uh entrepreneurs and see , like , what they think , and they were very enthusiastic . So I knew , okay , hey , there's something up here , yes . But then , looking in the funeral industry , it's pretty closed . It's a high margin market and , yeah , especially if you're an outsider , you you have no idea how the business model works a high margin market is good if you bring a product in right .

Bob 8:25

Yeah , from a product perspective it's good , and especially since mycelium is like chapter one of the technology , so it is more expensive . Okay , so also that was of course from the business perspective a good market to dive into um .

Bob 8:37

and then we had to make the choice , sort of like , hey , are we going to go b2c or b2B ? And we learned that people don't really often purchase a coffin via a web shop , so we were a little bit early with that . And of course this new generation like why are they not buying it ? But then realizing , yeah , people of 70 don't often use the internet anyway , so we switched to B2B . More . And now we have a good mix of B2C and B2B .

Lars 9:02

Okay , and that's working out for us okay , nice , um , so then you talk . We just talked briefly also on how it's being produced , right , and and I saw some videos of what it looks like in your facility as you're scaling up . Anybody doing any kind of production work knows that there's significant investments going into infrastructure , resources , etc . Can you talk us through how you scale up this production process to get to the next level ?

Bob 9:33

Yeah , it was pretty hard , to be honest . We started at yes Delft , the incubator next to the TU Delft University . There we had a very small room of , I would say , 30 square meters . People from yes Del delft , if they're listening , they know the stories about coffins lying everywhere . So at some point we had to move out and now we're in a facility of 1200 square meters . Yeah , and the thing , it's all funding related , because in the end you know exactly which system you want , but it's 200 000 so you don't have the money , okay so you're gonna diy something , um , which is pretty shitty , yeah , but yeah , it sort of is with baby steps .

Bob 10:11

So we went in and like , whenever we had money , we tried to buy the best possible option . Yeah , and then skill , and I'm now more talking of technology like mixers , cleaning , cleaning machines , climate technology , that kind of stuff .

Lars 10:26

And then I think when we first talked , you also talked about kind of trying to figure out everything yourself versus using more proven methodologies . What is your learning there ?

Bob 10:36

Yeah , so definitely in the beginning we had the idea that we were the best in the world at everything Of course yeah , as a solid founder does . And we learned quickly that it is not super smart to try to develop all the technology yourself , but rather pinpoint on like , hey , we're going to specialize in this and all the other stuff we're going to how do you say it Buy ?

Lars 10:57

Yeah .

Bob 10:58

So we made a big switch from make to buy , which was a really hard moment in our company because we were relatively young , our revenue was low and we had a lot of youngsters in from the Technical University of Delft most of us friends or via our network and they were like , yeah shit , this is not going to work out , we have too many people on the bus and actually we just don't need to figure out how to build the machine ourselves , we just need to purchase it . So that was a hard moment for us and we had to let go , unfortunately , of a lot of team members and then switch to more experienced team members and also more buying technology instead of making it Okay .

Lars 11:37

What did you learn from that process ?

Bob 11:40

That hiring is the most important thing for a founder .

Lars 11:44

Yeah .

Bob 11:45

And you always hear it and you're like fuck off man . I don't like hiring Screw , that it can be that hard , but it's really hard because the thing that I learned is like the company we're building is changing , you need to recruit for that change and when the person starts that you're recruiting , the company already changed Right .

Lars 12:01

And I also learned that the best mix is young talent and proven experience okay ajax 2018 even though I'm a psv fan okay , okay , a mix of young youngsters and experienced people , and then you get them in . Do you have vacancies at this moment ?

Bob 12:20

yeah , we have . Uh , I think there are now four open and uh like next week two or three will follow ah , okay , well , and next week , because you closed a funding round right , so let's dive into that right now .

Lars 12:32

That's really nice , it's a really good moment to start in that's yeah , so come , come in . You'll find the the jobs on on the website of look biotech . You can also find them on hackyourcareercom , where we combine all startup jobs in the region . I think there's about 750 jobs . Go check it out . Um , let's talk about that funding part because , um , well , you had sean harris and peter schoon already as your investors . Um , you're now raising or you finished raising a 2 million crowdfunding . But I'm going to challenge you Because I read investors really found their way into what we call mushroom tech , right , infinite Roots . You probably know them German Scalab . They raised 58 million for their technology . Mogu raised 11

Strategies for Growing a Business

Lars 13:17

million . So my question is are you thinking big enough and what are you going to do with the 2 million ?

Bob 13:21

Nice , I like the question . The answer is is sometimes I think we don't think big enough um , but we're starting to learn um and the question ?

Lars 13:33

sorry , it wasn't the second question , I was so what are you going to do with the two million ? So how are you going to use that ?

Bob 13:37

yeah , yeah , um . So what are we going to do with two million ? Is we're gonna increase revenue in the netherlands and also lure a little bit towards europe . So we hired two experienced sales , uh , persons . One is familiar with the funeral industry so he has a lot of contacts , so that will help a lot because it's a it's a different breed of people and it's super nice to have an expert in and the other one will focus on international . So that will happen and furthermore , we'll scale up our factory . So we're going to buy a lot of machinery to automate , to make the products better , cheaper and faster , and that sort of is the main thing we're focusing on .

Lars 14:14

Okay , and for those that have invested , you could see this also in the prospectus and also see how you're making money now , right ? So what is the plan on scaling over the next couple of years ? What are your targets that you want to achieve ? By sales right , Because basically we just said you sold more than a thousand coffins . So what's your ambition ?

Bob 14:39

Yeah , so the goal for this year , like from talking from now to next year , our goal is to aim for the 1 million revenue selling 1,000 coffins and 3,000 urns .

Lars 14:50

Yeah .

Bob 14:51

We also have another product , forest Bands , but it's not in the KPI at the moment . So that's the goal , and if we achieve that , we hit the 1 million revenue . Yeah , you know as well , a lot of more funding doors will open . So that's also thinking big Like . If we hit that one like , our next round will be in the 10 , 20 million . That's what we're aiming for , but for this phase it was too early to get that .

Lars 15:15

Yeah , okay , so focusing on sales and scaling up production . Yeah , last night I also chipped in a little bit , so I'm definitely following your Welcome to the team in a little bit .

Lars 15:29

so , uh , I'm definitely following your yay uh joining uh the team . Um , you talked about this already a little bit , but , um , I still want to ask the question for you personally . If you , uh , when you look at your own leadership capabilities , how have you changed over time ? And you , you paused a little bit on uh I a designer or an entrepreneur how have you evolved as a leader ?

Bob 15:47

I think as a leader , I'm a builder . I like to run up front and try to inspire and how do you say it make people energetic , like enthusiasm . I have some lengths that sometimes I can be a little bit stubborn and sometimes I can go a little bit too hard .

Lars 16:11

Okay .

Bob 16:12

So that doesn't help .

Lars 16:15

Well , it's the prerequisite for a good founder , right ? Be a bit stubborn and go really fast and hard . Yeah , true .

Bob 16:20

But it's important to bring everybody along . So I learn a lot about getting people involved , learn a lot about letting go . I can be a little bit yeah my way , I would like to see it my way , but also more admiring what people have to offer and be more flexible . So a little bit more of letting go . I also learned that if you just make good KPIs , letting go is a lot easier because together you've taken the dot on the horizon and you both have the same expectation . So that's what really helps . And what also really helps is having a fellow founder who is also your fiance and is really good at all the other stuff .

Lars 16:59

Yes .

Bob 17:00

So together I think we're a good team , yeah .

Lars 17:03

Well , let's talk about that elephant in the room . I'm not calling your fiance an elephant , but she's the elephant in the room here , because that is interesting , right . Elephant in the room here , um , because that is interesting , right . So you were developing as a , as a founder . You were a single founder , yeah , and , as we all know well , investors don't like single founder companies , uh . So you get the advice . But then the other thing is don't start a business with your wife , or soon to be wife . So tell us how did that come ? How did that story happen ? And then I'm really curious how do you make it work ?

Bob 17:30

yeah , I was just . I went on a business trip with YesDel to San Francisco .

Lars 17:35

Yeah .

Bob 17:36

And there we've seen so many things , all the VCs , and everyone was like , yeah , go big , let's go , yeah . And I was like so pumped up , but everyone's saying like you can't be a solo founder . And I'm like I am a solo founder . So I said , okay , I need a solo office , I need a find a founder .

Lars 17:52

So I started dating and I dated wait , so you started dating for a founder ? Yeah , okay , yeah , this is a niche style .

Bob 17:58

Yeah , we started dating for a founder and I had three uh yeah , solid people , but it didn't feel like the click . I couldn't really trust them and that was more probably my issue than their issue .

Entrepreneurial Relationship Dynamics and Strategies

Bob 18:11

So at some time I was walking with a coach higher from yes , delft and he told me like bob , what are you looking for in a founder ? I'm like I'm so tired . I just look somebody . Look , I'm looking for somebody , just like my girlfriend and it's like bob , why didn't you ask her ? Like no way . And then I asked her and we started working as sort of a test . I mean , I always joke like she's now , she was already working , but now she's actually getting paid because you know when you're at home and you're talking to your fiance or girlfriend or whatever .

Bob 18:40

Um , so , yeah , then it happened and it was a super nice click and um , yeah , it really is a lifestyle . It's really intense yeah but for people who know me , they would understand that Bob Likes Intense so yeah , it's nice and the personal click was already there .

Lars 18:56

But now there's also a business click , but then still I'm curious how do you switch off ? Because I can imagine so . I'll give you a personal example . The reason I don't work with my wife is I'd like to keep these things separate , but she still advises me on many occasions , so technically she's also probably co-founder of whatever I do um , but we didn't ever formalize it . So how do you ? How do you make that work in written , because I think people out there are listening . Yeah , how do you do it ?

Bob 19:26

I think what really helps is that we're really different persons . So where I'm more external focused , she's more internal focus in the company . Yeah , so she is really good with , uh , the finance , the operations , and those are the things that really do not give me energy and the things that , sorry that I'm doing is not giving her energy . So also already by nature there is a really good deviation , and at home we have sort of a rule that whenever we're home we don't talk about work unless you sort of have to check in . So if I have an issue , if I check my email at 11 o'clock which sometimes happens bad bob , don't do it then I'm in bed and like , oh shit , I feel really , yeah , fucked . And then I ask her like hey , I read something . I feel really annoyed , can I tell you this ? And then sometimes the answer is yes , sometimes the answer is no .

Lars 20:19

Oh well , that's strong .

Speaker 5 20:21

When it's no , then the passive aggression comes in . Yeah , oh , wow .

Bob 20:25

That's sort of how we make the rules , but yeah , sometimes it is not possible . And it's just really shitty . Yeah yeah , sometimes it is , it is not possible and it's just really shitty . Yeah , so it does have disadvantages , but the advantage is really nice , like you're always with your favorite person in the world there you go yeah and all the adventures you make together . It's like all the things we experience with , like the fundraising with the investors with the team .

Lars 20:46

Yeah , yeah , she's really . Yeah , you're really close to each other . And then how does the and maybe we should ask your team . But how did the team respond ? Or how do people respond if they know that you're soon to be married ?

Bob 21:00

They want to come to the wedding .

Lars 21:01

Okay , that's a good sign .

Bob 21:04

Yeah , how did they respond ? We always we don't really in the beginning , we always tell it up front .

Lars 21:08

Okay .

Bob 21:09

But now we don't even tell it and it's just like , yeah , it's a fact .

Lars 21:12

Yeah .

Bob 21:13

They can hear us sort of kibble of it too , because with your fiance you're talking differently than with your team members , so sometimes we see them a little bit laughing like .

Lars 21:23

Yeah , yeah yeah . But it's interesting , the most durable companies in the world are family-owned businesses and I know that in the tech industry we've always been looking for you know these typical founder types , et cetera , so maybe you're setting a new trend here for making sustainable businesses that are run as a family business .

Bob 21:40

That would be cool Because also in the funeral industry it's like super common to have a family business . Yeah , definitely , yeah , yeah .

Lars 21:46

Wow , okay , Well we found a link here . Uh , very nice , um , cool , um . Before we go to the break , final question um , what has been your biggest fuck up to date ?

Bob 22:02

he's now going through all of his fuck ups all the fuck ups like this , this , this , I think the from a business perspective is , uh , trying to , yes , so not early enough , switching from making to buying so trying to reinvent the wheel yeah yeah , it was , I think the looking back and also , um , from a team perspective , not hiring experienced people uh , soon enough .

Bob 22:27

But yeah , you're , you're super young so yeah , you don't have the experience , but yeah , that's what I would advise younger ones like hire the expensive persons earlier uh , but then how do you make sure that you can pay ?

Speaker 3 22:40

I mean because I think in the early days you also don't have the money right , yeah so how would you do that in hindsight ?

Lars 22:45

what would you do ?

Bob 22:46

in hindsight , what is really nice right now is the crowdfunding campaign that people have shares . In the beginning was also like super hectic , like oh no , then people have shares in your company and they leave , etc . And what I really learned from uh , from sean , from sean harris , is really having trust and uh , building together yeah and uh benefiting together , right , so that's , that's what we're more and more implementing , yeah yeah , and then with shareholders you can always do vesting right .

Lars 23:12

So for those , that have never heard about that . Look it up . But making sure that you invest your equity over , you get your equity over time if you perform . Okay , good yeah hiring the right people as soon as possible , as soon as you can , and then also the part of the production . I think those are great pieces of experience . Slash advice , thank

Entrepreneurial Habits for Mental Wellness

Lars 23:34

you for that .

Speaker 5 23:34

We'll go to a quick break and then we'll be back . You're listening to the podcast of Up Rotterdam . We help startups scale and grow their business by offering access to talent , access to international markets and access to capital . Curious how we can make the network work for you ?

Lars 23:47

Go to uprotterdamcom this podcast was made possible by the city of Rotterdam and we're back . Wow , it's so great to listen to your story how you started and how you got where you are today , and I think it should be an inspiration also for other designers or bio designers to see how you can make a scalable product with smart people around you and some great investors . Let's talk how you unwind , because entrepreneurship is tough . It's hard work , uh , especially when you're building with your partner . I suppose , um , can you share any specific habits or rituals that you have , uh to say , to stay sane mentally and physically ?

Bob 24:30

um , yeah , definitely , um , yeah . So first acknowledgement it is hard , it is uh lonely sometimes . You have the highs , you have the lows . Um , I've written some texts from back in the days to really show how I felt . I never posted them , but I have them like a diary , yeah , so I can look back later on like holy shit , shit , I was really down .

Lars 24:51

Nice . So do you do kind of daily journaling , or was it just ?

Bob 24:55

No , it was just some time Okay , just some time when I felt really down . But what do I do to keep sane ? I've invested a lot in learning about the habits , so I did like the whole Tony Robbins package .

Lars 25:11

Oh , wow .

Bob 25:11

I like America yeah he's a little bit extreme , but a little bit .

Lars 25:16

Yeah , he's very extreme .

Bob 25:18

Yeah , so I did all the courses like literally in the first year of loop I did all the courses like everything on finance , health , etc . That really helped . From that moment I went vegetarian , I went non-alcoholic , um , so that really helped . I started working out a lot , uh , which is often hard because if you have meetings till 11 , yeah what are you going to work ? Um ? The classic cold showers . It's going really well every day , um , even in the weekends . And meditation . Meditation now is a little bit harder because I'm getting really impatient . In the beginning I did a 10 day silent course in austria at the beginning of loop at the beginning of loop I was on fire .

Lars 25:57

I was like I'm gonna do this , this , this 10 days in silence . My wife did three days in silence and I it almost killed me because she was living with me .

Bob 26:05

So anyway , long story sidetrack , but 10 days in silence , yeah , wow and then , at the end of the day , I do gratitude and wins .

Lars 26:12

Oh .

Bob 26:13

So say like five wins . But these are the things . Sometimes they don't happen .

Lars 26:18

Okay .

Bob 26:18

Because yeah , life happens .

Lars 26:20

But this almost sounds like one of those perfect Instagram influencers . This is really a lot that you are doing . This is actually my bare minimum .

Bob 26:29

Wow , I have a list of like sort of a 20-20 amount list of things I want to do .

Lars 26:34

I keep track of them .

Bob 26:36

I give them like numbers . So if it's green , it's really my habit .

Lars 26:39

So , for example , the cold shower , that's so easy , and it's also relatively simple to implement , right ? Because you just shower anyway . Yeah , put it cold .

Bob 26:46

But then , for example , some things that are a little bit more difficult , like the gratitude at the end of the day . Sometimes at the end of the day , it's like hey guys , everyone and you just forget it .

Lars 26:54

Yeah , yeah , yeah , nice Working on that . Yeah , great list . And then congratulations on the zero alcohol . For how long now ? Yeah , three years , Three years okay , I must admit , I probably drink , like many others , too often and too much . So what is it like to switch to Xero ?

Bob 27:13

From a health perspective it's really nice . From a social perspective it's really shitty . Okay , especially in the beginning . I'm coming from the Delft environment so I had like a student home et cetera , and everybody drinks and they go out on Friday and then until 10 , 11 , it's fun . But then you hear stories twice and you're like , okay , this is my cue . But yeah , the hardest thing is your circle of friends changes and yeah , that is sometimes really lonely , because then you don't really have the friends anymore that align with your values , but you also don't have the new ones .

Bob 27:49

So , it's like hanging in between and like , yeah , yeah , but I literally never . How do you say ? Look back . Sometimes I think about it , like , for example , new year , oh , shall I drink ? And I'm like , no , this streak is too good yeah , it's not stopped now .

Lars 28:04

No , I think , particularly when you combine it with all those other things you do right with exercise and and , uh well , the meditation , although that's , I heard , sometimes a bit tough . I find meditation really tough , by the way .

Lars 28:14

I just can't do it , Only guided meditation , by the way . So I think it's the inspiration fathers right that are thinking about quitting alcohol and know what you sign up for . So your environment changes a little bit and you probably also see the changes , because then indeed a bottle is no much fun after 11 o'clock when everybody gets drunk and you're sober , yeah , okay , yeah , good insight , and maybe it would have changed if I was single oh I'm actually .

Bob 28:39

Sometimes I talk with my girl oh , would this actually happen if I was single , because I had a really stable girlfriend , of course , yeah , so for me that maybe also made a little bit easier .

Lars 28:47

Yeah yeah , a good point , good point , but I don't know , yeah , okay , well , so uh , we , we thought about bringing champagne here to celebrate your , uh , your win .

Bob 28:50

We didn't so it was a good point .

Lars 28:50

Good point , but I don't know , yeah , okay , well , so , uh , we , we thought about bringing champagne here to celebrate your uh your win we didn't , so it was a good , it was a good call um , very nice

Founder Relationships and Sustainability Vision

Lars 29:00

um . And then you mentioned also , final thing , you mentioned friends and people to hang out . So who do you get inspiration from ? Are there other founders that you like meet up with or learn from ?

Bob 29:09

um , yeah , I have some founder , uh friends like yuri from peter pod , julian somnoks yeah , julian is one of the podcasts as well , okay yeah , and actually yuri will come up soon yeah we . Obviously he has some good stories , he has a very good story .

Lars 29:22

He's getting better over time . So , yeah , he's writing a book really .

Bob 29:25

Yeah , he should yeah , so I know them all from back in the delft days yeah um , so from the yes delft community there are some friends now from Orange Wings . They have a tribe because they invest in a lot of early stage startups , so we see them a few times per year . But then of course , you have my normal friends , which is sometimes also nice , because then it's yeah , I'm not Bob the entrepreneur , I'm just Bob .

Lars 29:46

Bob , the Bob , yeah , which is also sometimes .

Lars 29:53

But yeah , you can't go too deep into like , oh , the , this happened at work and it's like , yeah , okay , but you've created a circle of people around you . I think that's what we see with other founders as well is , you're working so hard , it's lonely , you're working on your own stuff , so find people around you to . Yeah well , call it friendship or call it business friendship . We strongly believe in peer connections , yeah , people helping each other out . So I think the sean harris circle is probably probably a good one , and you're also invited , of course , to the in peer connections , people helping each other out . So I think the Sean Harris circle is probably a good one , and you're also invited , of course , to the Rotterdam dinner , again this year happening at Upstream , 28th of May I'm looking at Lisette here . Yes , 28th of May , cool .

Lars 30:26

So next up , final part , is that we go to the listeners' questions . It's my favorite part always because it brings in different perspectives . Um , one of them and I think you know him really well , uh , duke urbanic . I think many people know him from the delft and also the rotterdam ecosystem . He says hi . He also says , bob , you are a super creative mind . And then his question is what would you have done if those loop cocoons hadn't been feasible . In other words , what was your plan B ?

Bob 30:55

Ooh , what was the plan B ? Nice question , dude . Thank you for asking . What was my plan B ? Now ? Actually really funny story . I had this idea of having a sustainable startup . So my other idea was either to go to a venture capital and learn from vcs how they do it , because I understand very early it's finance in the end , so doesn't matter really what kind of product you have , in the end it's finance .

Lars 31:21

So five times why you get the money . Yeah exactly .

Bob 31:24

um . So I actually almost applied for an internship while I was graduated at a VC . That was my lowest moment , but then I said , no , I'm going to do my own , which was really nice . Other things what would I have done ? I had some other ideas , to be honest , in the pipeline , but they were a little bit less commercial friendly . Okay .

Lars 31:50

I saw your personal website where there's a lot of yeah , stuff , more design , yeah , design stuff , yeah okay , I like that angle . So see how things in life sometimes change . Change I mean in a , maybe in a parallel universe . You are now somewhere on the side to us , uh , as a vc , yeah , all right , cool , looking back by the way , that would have been a awful decision .

Bob 32:08

I think you made the right decision . You , by the way , that would have been an awful decision .

Lars 32:12

I think you made the right decision . You know , the one thing that VCs often forget is that we feel that also in negotiations right , you feel that one has an advantage over the other . But I always keep saying without founders , vcs have no role to play . So it really starts with the founders and with the companies that they're building , and then the VCs really should be supportive to that . And I think sometimes , when you're also at drinks , investors forget that every now and then because they think that whoever has the money has the power . But it's the founders that hold the power to their business , and I think also that should be the way . Anyway , just wanted to put that on the record .

Lars 32:49

So thanks , duke , and we should catch up . It's been a long time ago , uh . Second question is from mark slagers . Uh , he is the founder of rotter swam . I know mark slagers very well . Um , he has a great question . First he compliments you . He says I'm very much inspired by your product and your journey and also by your exit strategy . Not sure if that was in the prospectus , perhaps .

Bob 33:10

Yeah , it is in there .

Lars 33:12

I didn't read it well enough . His question is how do you safeguard your sustainability goals in the event of an acquisition by an organization with more economic objectives ?

Bob 33:23

Well played , little Bob thought of that . It's in the shareholder agreement .

Lars 33:28

Okay .

Bob 33:28

So there's a sentence there .

Lars 33:30

And what does it say ? That Loop should focus on um , I don't know , but it's , it's like related to loop should focus on sustainability and making a but if a company would be acquired , if a whole loop would be acquired by , let's say , a big corporation , would that still hold ?

Bob 33:55

I haven't thought this through , so , from my point of view , like I'm here for the coming years , decades , okay , so that was the only thing I could do like to settle it in . Yeah , we also of course have like the steward ownership and that kind of thing , but I haven't looked into that .

Lars 34:12

Okay .

Bob 34:13

Yes , that's the only thing .

Lars 34:15

Okay , so basically you're just not selling so far .

Bob 34:18

Yeah , yeah Just keep the company running Cool . But I think it's so aligned with our vision , like also from a commercial perspective . If somebody would acquire us and change the mission like that , that is a poor business . Yeah , it would make no sense .

Lars 34:34

Yeah , okay so it's built into your core yeah core business , cool . Um , I have a really practical question . This is uh yip krama , who everybody knows because he's my son . He's 11 year old , he listens to this podcast , uh , every now and then and I told him this story and he actually remembers , uh , his grandfather passing away last year , um , and they were drawing on the cask on the coffin . So his question is can you also draw on them , like on the wooden ones ?

Bob 34:59

yeah , yeah , the question is yes , they're . They're white like cram cream color , um , and we also will also , uh , sell as as a service , biodegradable paint . Very good so like little children , they can paint on it , or also grown-up children can also paint on it . There you go , guilty . Yeah , I did too . Okay , great .

Lars 35:17

Well , see , I thought about that . I knew that . Thank you , jip , for asking that question . See you tonight . Final question is from Roy . I don't know which roy , but his question is um looking ahead , what are the long-term goals and aspirations for loop biotech and how do you see the company evolving in the years to come ?

Bob 35:36

nice question . Um , our vision all the way from above is um , we're here to enrich nature and we really believe that we want to put the human remains back into the cycle of life .

Bob 35:49

So , basically , we would like to turn humans , when they die , into trees yeah and right now that's not the case , because , yeah , you're in the soil , you're either cremated , there's a lot of negative footprint associated with it , and I don't know about you guys , but when I'm at a cemetery , it's not my favorite place , while nature cemetery , of course , is a forest , so why couldn't we have these nice lush parks that are also cemeteries , integrating death more into our society , which I think is a really healthy thing , because the absence of death makes it really a big thing .

Bob 36:23

What I learned little sidetrack from working in this industry that the more I'm surrounded by death , the more grateful I am to be alive , so it actually makes you happier .

Bob 36:33

My assumption was I'm getting depressed , I'm going to see dead people like this is not good , but the opposite is true yeah and so that is our vision , like turning , turning humans into compost and doing in the netherlands uh , doing it in europe , doing it in the Netherlands , doing it in Europe , doing it in the USA , building factories all around the world , working with local ecosystems , local mushroom species and local substrates and thereby growing this new generation of products that has a positive footprint instead of a negative footprint .

Lars 37:00

Very nice and I think that's close to your strategy . And when you talk Sorry , so many questions coming out of this one . No , let's go with the first one . So , being closer to death , I think I mentioned to you briefly that in my study times I worked for Matrice Uitvaartbegeleiding . The KVK business challenge , I think we participated in and basically asked you for four months to spend time with a company , and in this case was helen teunissen from um .

Lars 37:30

I saw that industry and indeed I think there's a lot of changes happening to what you're saying is um , that we should be , you know , in a way connected to death , and I think some cultures do spend more time on this than than we with their typical . I don't know anybody who's been at a typical dutch funeral with plucky cake , which is like a piece of cake , and it really goes really fast . I think there's more and more people trying to have a different experience . But then also , to your point , cemeteries need to change . So that's a big mission . Anyway , just wanted to throw that in . The real question I have is you mentioned the US and other countries , so you've been to Silicon Valley . Where is that in your strategy ? When do you want to ?

Bob 38:09

go abroad , I think in two years . So our first goal is , of course , really have our sales and operation running in the Netherlands Already . We're working in Europe with Austria , germany , uk , and new countries will come in the coming years . But as part of her growth strategy we noticed like hey , in the USA , yeah , there's an insane market , the people are ready , the law is ready , we're already getting a lot of inquiries , so people are already wanting the product .

Lars 38:39

So it's just actually a pretty simple logic decision , but then technically you would want to produce it there locally . Right Also to reduce , yeah , reduce .

Bob 38:46

so the first phase and that that comes with , like from a little bit perspective , like our whole goal is to have a positive footprint , and then the reality is how you don't have money to have a positive footprint because it's just really expensive yeah sometimes you have to make a sacrifice . So in our strategy we said okay , the first initial step to go abroad is we need to ship , because we're not going to , I'm not going to .

Lars 39:07

Set up a production site there .

Bob 39:08

I'm not going to convince an investor like hey , give me 20 million and . I'll fix it . So first we need to have the sales from those parties and already we learned that those parties actually would like to invest themselves in those factories .

Lars 39:20

Right .

Bob 39:21

Because they're , For most of the times , the funeral site parties we're working with . They're the biggest in their country .

Lars 39:27

Yeah , so they could actually build . They're happy to invest to set up a local version . Oh nice , so you could have a network effect , I think also there from your… .

Bob 39:34

Yeah , so that's a little bit of the plan .

Lars 39:36

Nice . That reminds me of the story of George Birch from Oyster Heaven . I'm not sure if you've seen him .

Lars 39:46

He , him , he's also building the orange wings . Yeah , yeah , yeah , uh , we also did a podcast with him and he also talked about how he's setting up factories in local regions to make sure that the fishermen there can put in the reefs , etc . So check out that podcast episode . It's also really interesting if you're into this topic . Uh , cool , um , it's so nice to finally dive into your story , bob . Uh , I've heard bits and pieces and obviously read every now and then , um , and followed you around . I'm now officially also part of your stock , so definitely following what you're doing . Next , keep us up to date , and I would say you probably have a lot of calls to answer from press who are calling you now . We just heard that , so we'll read all about you coming up next . Thanks for sharing your story . As always , we close off with a song that you select . Would you like to explain which song you selected and why ?

Bob 40:31

Yes , first of all , thanks for having me .

Lars 40:33

My pleasure .

Bob 40:35

I really like to talk about this stuff , so feel free to send me a message if you heard this . I had a song . It's a little bit emotional song for me . It's called Light family high and we used to uh this was maybe in somewhere in 2000 , when I grew up in eindhoven with uh three older brothers so we're in total with four we used to go on holiday , winter sports , and then you always had like the cds and this was our favorite song . Um , so this reminds me of driving with my parents , like feeling safe in the back , hearing this song on our way to winter sport , which was like the highlight of the year , which still is . So sometimes when I'm either feeling really low , I put it on , or when I'm feeling really high , I also put it on . So it's a really nice song .

Lars 41:24

Cool , that's a great introduction . Thanks for bringing that

Musical Appreciation and Reflection on Love

Lars 41:27

song . Thank you for listening , and while you're listening to the next song , please do us a favor leave a rating in the app until next time . Keep it up .

Speaker 4 41:45

When you're close to tears . Remember . Someday it'll all be over . One day we're gonna get so high . Though it's darker than December , what's ahead is a different color . One day we're gonna get so high and , at the end of the day , remember the days when we were close to the edge and we'll wonder how we made it through .

Speaker 3 42:32

And , at the end of the day , remember the way we stayed so close to the edge , and we'll remember it was me and you , cause we are gonna be forever , you and me . You will always keep me flying high in the sky of love . Don't you think it's time you started doing what we always wanted ? One day we're gonna get so high .

Speaker 4 43:19

Cause even the impossible is easy . When we got each other One day we gonna get so high , high , high , high At the end of the day . Remember the days when we were close to the end and we wondered how we made it through and at the end of the day , we remember the way we stayed so close to the end .

Speaker 4 43:54

We remembered it was me and you cause we are gonna be forever , you and me you will always keep me Flying high in the sky of love High high , high , high , at the end of the day , remember the days when we were close to the end and the wonder of how we made it through . And I , at the end of the day , remember the way we stayed so close to the end .

Speaker 3 44:40

But remember it was me and you , cause we are gonna be Forever and me We'll always keep Flying high in the sky Forever and me , cause we are gonna be forever , you and me , with a whiskey flying high in the sky of love . Cause we are gonna be forever , you and me , we'll always keep it flying high in the sky of love . Thank you for watching you .