Speaker 1: 0:01

Today we dive into the story of Sander Wapperom, co-founder of DeWarmte, who are on a mission to make every home in the Netherlands gas-free. In this conversation, we'll explore a smarter way to get residential homes of natural gas, anticipating changing market dynamics and DeWarmte's recent crowdfunding campaign. My name is Lars Kramer and you're listening to episode 58 of Start to Scale, the podcast where we dissect the scale-up stories of remarkable founders. Immediately after graduating from TU Delft, sander and his co-founder Auker developed an innovative product called HeatCycle, which recovers all heat from household wastewater, and that led them to win the ASN World Prize in 2020. Later they added the sleek and smart AO heat pump that won the IF Design Award 2024 out of almost 11,000 entries from 72 countries, and today DeWarmt is well underway to install their 3,000th heat pump by the end of 2024. Welcome, sander.

Speaker 2: 1:01

Thank you very much.

Speaker 1: 1:02

Did I make any statements that were not true in that intro? No, I don't think so I did my homework a little bit. Which prize are you more proud of? The ASN world prize or the IF design board?

Speaker 2: 1:13

oh, tricky one, both very proud of. The ASN prize was more, maybe more impactful because of the stage of the company. So we were really small and that 25K I think it was was really helpful as well at the stage where we were and it was the first like price of those that we won. But then the IF Design Award is maybe a bit more prestigious and very nice to have on the product to have some validity of our design work.

Speaker 1: 1:45

Right, yeah, so both were important. All the different phases of the company We've met a couple of times. You've joined, I think, two of our founders' dinners that we hosted at.

Speaker 3: 1:54

Rotterdam.

Speaker 1: 1:56

But today we really dive a bit deeper into your story, your founder's story, what you're doing with the Varmte and also what you're working on. Today we're recording this at your office in the titan in the hague a great building. Go check it out. A shout out to the team of unknown group for um for for building a great impact. Uh, hub um. And we have to say your co-founder was supposed to be here but he's in a very special place right now yes, yes.

Speaker 2: 2:20

so some slightly expected, but not for sure expected today to happen, but he's in the hospital expecting his first child. Yeah, we go.

Speaker 1: 2:32

So, Alke, we're thinking about you recording this as your wife is probably giving labor, but we hope everything goes well and we hope to see you again soon. So, Sander, before we dive into your story, we always start with statements that you can answer with true or false.

Speaker 2: 2:44

All right.

Speaker 1: 2:46

We started our company with a clear idea of what problem we wanted to solve. True, by 2040, every Dutch household will be off natural gas.

Speaker 2: 2:59

Hopefully. That's a tricky one. I want to say true, let's be positive positive.

Speaker 1: 3:10

Okay, 16 years since our initial equity round in 2021, the venture capital market changed quite a bit, definitely, true. Finally, in hindsight, we should have partnered up for some of our products sooner. Yeah, true, there we go, it's all trues. Four in a row. And finally, in hindsight, we should have partnered up for some of our products sooner.

Speaker 3: 3:27

Yeah, true there we go.

Speaker 1: 3:27

It's all true. Wow, four in a row. Maybe go back to your origin story. You started with Auke right after university, but you're also both working you as a consultant, auke at Eneco. Can you maybe take us back? How did you find each other and where did the whole idea for the warm to come from?

Speaker 2: 3:45

Yeah, so there's two different places in time. We met each other when we started studying, so before really the first day of the, even before we started, there is a introduction day at the TU Delft and we were there at the same time and we found each other to be cool guys and hanged out from that moment on.

Speaker 2: 4:12

So then you had the introduction week. We did the whole first week. We're in the same group and then from there on, during the studies, every time when we had exams coming up, we worked together on the exams, and that worked really well.

Speaker 1: 4:28

Okay.

Speaker 2: 4:29

So at the TU Delft everything was recorded for our study. So what we did was, a couple of weeks before the exams, sit together, watch all the recordings back and ask each other questions that we didn't know. So we kind of got to work together from that moment on and just kept on doing it. It worked really well and efficient.

Speaker 1: 4:49

Cool, okay, so you really got the time to get to know each other.

Speaker 2: 4:54

Yeah, even better during study, because after the well in our third bachelor year I think, we went abroad together, to Italy, and we even shared a room together there. Well, that's, I think, the biggest test you can have for a friendship.

Speaker 1: 5:10

But that was for fun, or it was travel as in holiday.

Speaker 2: 5:14

No, this was actually. We studied there and we were looking for a house. Well, basically, student rooms and housing. We couldn't really find them in Padua, so it was really hard to find something, and then we found a big one that we could basically share, and that's how we ended up living together for six months yeah, okay, well then you know each other exactly.

Speaker 1: 5:36

It's funny because finding a co-founder is usually one of the most hardest thing for many founders, and but it seems like you have spent quite a bit of time of finding each other, and then you found each other, and then when did the idea for the warm to come up?

Speaker 2: 5:50

yeah, so that was a lot later phase, in the end time of our master degrees. So I always had this urge to be an entrepreneur. I would really wanted to try it. I did some entrepreneur courses at the end phase of my master's as well, so that was really the main like starting point wanting to be an entrepreneur. And from there we started brainstorming one day a week and came up with a lot of shitty ideas that will never work. And then with the heat cycle as well, and there we calculated like all right, so sewage is one of the heat leaks in the buildings, how much energy is flowing out of of a building. And we came to the realization that with, uh, an average household of four, all the, if you recuperate all the heat from the sewage, you can supply 40 of the total heat requirement of that home wow, so maybe let that sink in.

Speaker 1: 6:50

So next time you take a shower in your home, you think about you know all the water that goes down the drain and it's hot water, right yeah it's 20. How warm is the water when you shower?

Speaker 2: 6:59

38, 38 degrees, and then it flushes down maybe okay, down loses some, some temperature. Okay, but you also have your toilets that you flush down.

Speaker 1: 7:09

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 7:09

And they heat up roughly to room temperature.

Speaker 1: 7:12

Okay, we don't want to know the details of that. Yeah, 18 degrees.

Speaker 2: 7:15

Well, that's 40% of your water use. So that's a large part that also has a lot of energy in it. So that's what a lot of people don't know. They think about the shower only, and then, of course, you have your appliances as well.

Speaker 1: 7:29

So dishwasher, washing machine Right and warm water. So you started with that idea and I think also that was the first time I learned about the warm tube, because I thought it was. I've invested a little bit in circular economy and I thought it was really interesting to see how you're reusing heat or warmth or that energy. But you were both still working at the time, right, you had a job, you were a consultant, I think Auker, was it Eneco?

Speaker 2: 7:53

Yes.

Speaker 1: 7:53

How did it work? Kind of working on the idea, half working. How did it work for you?

Speaker 2: 7:58

Yeah, so it was pretty intense. It was like three days of working and three days working on the startup pretty intense. It was like three days of working and three days working on the startup, so it was one day, weekends, uh, for a year.

Speaker 2: 8:09

And, um, yeah, he worked at the neco, because he graduated at the neco and he could continue there, um, for like a freelance mode, uh, and I worked at green fish, it was called and I worked on solar panels, basically doing the well, everything from A to Z right basically so doing the engineering and then the project management, and then the commissioning okay it was pretty cool because those projects are like six months walkthrough time to have this like six megawatt plans, so I could really finish some projects that I started on and it was really nice cool, cool, and it gave you then some money in the bank to work on the idea on the site right, exactly it gave just about enough money to pay our rents.

Speaker 2: 8:55

And well, of course, I learned a lot about project management and it's nice to have some experience before you start full-time. And then, at the end of 2000 I think this was 2019 at the end of 2019, we got our first subsidy and of course, we wanted to go full time like the whole year already. So we were like, okay, how can we make this happen? Um, and then when we had that subsidy, we could, uh, go full time and really work on the heat cycle took the jump.

Speaker 1: 9:23

uh, and we'll get to that in a moment. Maybe let's paint the picture a little bit, because people might be listening and thinking like, oh, I'm still using a lot of gas, I don't even have solar panels, and maybe can you take us through what are the challenges for consumers that want to move away from gas and how do you solve that with heat cycle and Pompeo.

Speaker 2: 9:47

Yeah, so the challenges really start basically at where, where what you just mentioned, like how do I get off the gas? What what should I do? Um, it's quite difficult to get the right information and there's a lot of different uh information out there. Um, and then back in 2019 and 20 especially, it was really hard to get quotation because the installing market was kind of overheated.

Speaker 2: 10:13

Yeah, because of the soaring gas prices back then right, yeah, exactly, soaring gas prices and the labor shortage on the market. So it was quite difficult to get the right information and to get the right quotations. And then you still needed a couple quotations, because sometimes you get a quotation based more on okay, how much do I think this person earns?

Speaker 2: 10:38

and let's put a quotation right just about the amount of money that they'll accept instead of the quotation of, okay, this is what it really costs. So there was a bit of intransparency as well, so you really had to dive deep and do your homework well, basically make half of a study out of it, and that's something that we really wanted to tackle already with our first product, the heat cycle that everything was clear on our website so you could basically just read what it is, including the cost, and that was something that wasn't really out there that often. So you really need to get a quotation.

Speaker 2: 11:11

And then the final step you get the cost and then you're like well, okay, well, maybe this is too much for me yeah okay. So we wanted to make it more like a web shop experience, so you see the cost, you know what you can expect. You know what you can expect in terms of gas reduction and then you can just click and buy. Yeah, so that's one of the issues that we solved okay from the start and that we're still working on every day to make that basically that customer journey as transparent and as pleasant as possible so that's a direct consumer model.

Speaker 1: 11:43

Right it's. Anybody like a house owner can go for this. I saw on your website you also have a B2B model, so which of those two is more important to your business?

Speaker 2: 11:52

D2C currently for sure, so the direct-to-consumer model is something that we're already quite mature in and that almost all of the revenue comes out of now. And the B2B model is something that we're now really exploring and doing our pilots with B2B customers and really taking that next step there as well.

Speaker 1: 12:15

And then, what's the definition of B2B in your case? So who is it?

Speaker 2: 12:18

So we're looking for? Well, basically, the end consumer is the housing corporation rentee.

Speaker 1: 12:26

Yeah, the person who rents the house.

Speaker 2: 12:28

Exactly that's the one who will use the heat pump. And then we're talking with both housing corporations and maintenance parties for housing corporations, so trying to team up there as well to make the customer journey for the housing corporation as smooth as possible. Cool.

Speaker 1: 12:43

Well, and even if for them it feels like D2c, you'll already win big right compared to some of the other providers. I suppose, um, let's talk about the changing dynamics that we also put in the in the statements. A little bit um after the subsidies. But you I think you were first. You received your first uh equity investment from rubio back in 2021 and then a portion in 2022. Investment from Rubio back in 2021 and then a portion in 2022. That was at the time when company valuations were very high, gas prices, I think, soared, yeah. But I guess times have changed right, both company valuations and the gas prices. So how did you anticipate that changed funding landscape and what? Because you need funding right to grow the business, I suppose. So can you talk us through what? What did you do after you kind of found that out?

Speaker 2: 13:27

well, the way that we found it out was by doing around with a way too high valuation and wrong expectations, basically. So we started in somewhere in 2022, I think, and on the VC market doing our pitches, we kind kind of discovered, okay, something has changed. So we got this feedback from a lot of VC companies that the whole market shifted and that it's more difficult. We also noticed that the VCs were shifting a bit more from pre-seed to post revenue and a bit more, and we were lucky that we were already there, so we were post revenue. So in that sense, we were also just quickly enough mature as a company or mature enough um for for the vcs, but we do had to like recalibrate um our assumptions of the market and that was quite a long process, so we really reiterated it I think two or three times our story to um yeah, to, to basically be ready for the new landscape okay

Speaker 1: 14:31

yeah, to get successful rounding, yeah, successful funding and yeah, uh, and we'll talk about the crowdfunding later, but I think you did something interesting in between that might not everybody know about. So how did you fund the intermediate part?

Speaker 2: 14:44

yeah, so we um that was january, I think, 2023 we, we found a debt provider venture debt is what they call it and that's something that's a debt provider that basically comes in at the where usually VC kind of parties are in the market.

Speaker 2: 15:06

Yeah, so in the risky stage, the relatively risky stage, Exactly In the risky stage with a stage, the relatively risky stage, exactly In the risky stage. We'd adapt to that. That's a bit more risk-prone, a bit higher in terms of interest as well, yeah, but that's what we got as a bridge and then we could continue around and get the first anchor investment in that. We really need it cool, okay.

Speaker 1: 15:35

So anybody looking out there, uh, go check out venture debt as a solution. Um, you talked about revenue and obviously I read your uh investor deck for the crowdfunding campaign. Um, I also put a little bit so uh, um, that's not an advice to anybody else, go check it out, but I, I really like your company, what you're doing, um, awesome. So I also read in 2023, you're surpassed, uh, three million in revenue and there's an ambitious goal of 3 000 heat cycles by the end of 2024 that must also installations, installations okay, installations, um, but as scaling up, you know we, you have a complex setup, et cetera.

Speaker 1: 16:14

So what are the typical operational logistical challenges that you've run into while you're scaling your business?

Speaker 2: 16:22

Yes, a lot of challenges. At the start, we did everything ourselves, so that's why we also had the true or false statements. We would have probably, if we do it again, worked with partners a bit sooner.

Speaker 1: 16:33

Even our first heat cycle we installed ourselves yeah, I think I saw a video of alka.

Speaker 2: 16:38

You know some yeah that could definitely be true. Alka did way more installation, way better at installing than I am. So when I'm done with an installation, everything leaks and I'm like, oh shit, so that's not my speciality, but he is pretty good at installations. So, um, he still does some um.

Speaker 2: 16:56

If there's some complex service something, he still goes out in the field sometimes, um, but from the start we did a lot of those things ourselves as well. Uh, then got some first installers in, but now we are working a lot with partners as well, um, and we have some really skilled uh, experienced installer teams ourselves okay um, so that was a transition there as well to really get. Uh well, the good partners yeah in the company so that we have quality uh installations right.

Speaker 1: 17:30

So are those people on your payroll or do you kind of use external partners? How do you manage that?

Speaker 2: 17:34

Yeah, so external, we work together with external partners and with self-employed installers and we're very critical on quality. So quality is very important for us and, yeah, that's something. That's because it's still from the warm-to-brand it because it's still from the warm to brand, it's the warm to customer journey. Yeah, um, so the quality yeah, it's just key.

Speaker 1: 17:56

Yeah, yeah, that's important. And then we're recording this in the hague, where your office is yeah, but I think you have a big space somewhere in the middle of the country, right? Yeah, yeah, that's where they actually put the things together and exactly so that's where everything comes in.

Speaker 2: 18:10

so all the material, all the components and then the final assembly step is done in Utrecht and all products. Again, quality is very important, our quality control there one by one. So every product that goes out in the field has run in. Utrecht for quality control. We know everything works, and then it's shipped out.

Speaker 1: 18:29

Okay cool Reflecting on your journey. So, since you started, what would you do differently next time?

Speaker 2: 18:41

Yeah. So again, I think the partners is something that we really learned and that we're really learning. We're working more and more with partners, and I think that's something that we would have done sooner. So, basically, in the strategic planning and in the forecasting, um would have added some additional budget for working with partners, um, because it makes everything quicker and you don't have to reinvent the wheel, so to say yeah so there's a lot of speciality partners out there that can help with, well, basically everything yeah from product development to marketing to sales.

Speaker 2: 19:17

Like everything in the business, there is a partner that can help, and that's something we really learned along the way as two engineers that thought we could do everything better ourselves that partners are really valuable yeah, yeah, two engineers from Delft.

Speaker 1: 19:35

So that's the other part, right. So you both have a technical background, but you do take a different role in the company. Is that correct?

Speaker 2: 19:42

Yeah, so I guess more on the operational side of the company, I'm a bit more on the finance and a bit more on the front on the sales and the marketing.

Speaker 1: 19:53

Okay front on the on the sales and the marketing.

Speaker 2: 19:55

Okay, um, but it's not my background social marketing so we have, uh, people who are better at that doing it okay, so how big is your team now?

Speaker 1: 20:03

because it's grown quite a bit, I think, over time yes, so we are like in total.

Speaker 2: 20:07

if you, if you also count in the self-employed people, then we're roughly with 40 people, and if you just look at payroll, we're 20 FTE.

Speaker 1: 20:18

Yeah, so full-time equivalent, okay. And then they're spread over Utrecht here and then in between.

Speaker 3: 20:23

I guess.

Speaker 2: 20:24

Exactly yeah.

Speaker 1: 20:25

How do you build one company culture?

Speaker 2: 20:29

Good question. Like a lot is digital. Also here, a lot is hybrid. So we have some company routines. We have the weekly week start where everyone logs in. If they're working from home or if they're here, they're around the camera basically telling what the week goals are learning from each other, and if there's questions or you need help, then that's a good moment to reach out and it's something where updates and news is also shared yeah and we have every month.

Speaker 2: 21:01

We have like a monthly team update and that's where we share basically, where we at what we did last month with the company, with everyone, and then go out for drinks for everyone who wants to join cool, yeah, and that that part is done physical, that you don't do that over cameras uh, well, actually that is also hybrid, so oh really, yeah, yeah yeah, hybrid. Well, oh, you mean the drinks?

Speaker 2: 21:23

yeah, no hybrid drinks no, no yeah so the drinks are physical for everyone who is physical, but the monthly. If you want to join the monthly and you're not at the office, you can join. Yeah, you can join in Cool.

Speaker 1: 21:33

Yeah, it's very nice and we were just upstairs in your office and well, as I said, it's a great place here, but you've also made it really nice. We actually saw the heat pump in your office and I would urge people to go check it out online because I think it's the most beautifully designed system I've seen. Yeah, it looks really cool, it's all with metal. It's high quality.

Speaker 1: 21:55

Yeah, for sure, so go check it out, cool. So we dissected a little bit of your story and where you've come from and where you're going. We'll go for a really quick break and then we'll be back.

Speaker 3: 22:08

You're listening to the podcast of Up Rotterdam. We help startups scale and grow their business by offering access to talent, access to international markets and access to capital. Curious how we can make the network work for you? Go to uprotterdamcom. This podcast was made possible by the city of Rotterdam.

Speaker 1: 22:28

Welcome back, hello, hello. Yeah, we just talked about finding co-founders, spending time in Italy, growing the business, also dealing, I think, with a changing VC landscape venture debt. There's actually quite a lot of information already in there. I'm going to put links in the show notes. Let's talk about your crowdfunding campaign. So you're currently crowdfunding. I haven't checked this morning, but you're crowdfunding for a max of 3 million, I think. How do you plan to use the funds? So you're raising money. What are you going to do with it?

Speaker 2: 23:01

Yeah, so a lot will be spent on building the brand. So a lot will be spent on marketing activities and sales activities to build the brand and something that's more tangible, maybe for people and for listeners. We're developing the all-electric upgrade, so we'll use some funds to finalize the all-electric upgrade. And the all-electric upgrade is basically an upgrade for your tap water. So with the pump AO you can heat heat 100 of your space heating, depending, of course, on how large your home is and with the upgrade you can do your tap water. It's basically something that your heat cycle can also do, but the heat cycle works very well if there's a lot of water usage in the home and there's a lot of free space to install the system. And this electric upgrade works also very well for smaller apartments or for big houses that just don't have access to the sewage or for calling spaces that are very, very wet.

Speaker 2: 24:01

Yeah, so with this upgrade we can get 70% of the Dutch homes off the gas, like technically Okay. So that's really a big milestone, yeah, for for the company and that's where, uh, some of the funds will go to as well okay, yeah, so it's product development next to sales and branding, getting your name out there exactly uh cool at the warmt is a very touch name.

Speaker 1: 24:25

So is your market, netherlands or europe? What's the uh, larger, bigger picture here?

Speaker 2: 24:30

yeah, so our starting market is in netherlands and we want to grow into europe. So 2025, 2026, we really want to grow into europe. Um, we will probably just keep the warm thing, okay, um, as a name, as you also see more and more companies, um european companies, with their home-based name right so there's also a lot of scandinavian companies that just have a scandinavian name, and that seems to work quite well yeah um, but it's something that we have not made the final decision over yet, so figure that out.

Speaker 1: 25:01

Yeah, we'll figure it out. Maybe go back to italy and see how they pronounce the varmto? I don't know exactly yeah, I think scandinavians will be fine with it. Um I I think it's also interesting you're in this crowdfunding process. It's with Investor right, previously known as.

Speaker 2: 25:18

One Planet Crowd. So they did a merger?

Speaker 1: 25:21

I think yeah maybe for people that are thinking about doing a crowdfunding campaign, other founders what, to you, has been the hardest part about getting the process running and getting everything going?

Speaker 2: 25:34

The hardest part, um so um. Well, we had at the start, setting everything up took a bit longer than we expected, so getting through all the legal documentation, and stuff like that. That took some longer than we expected. So we went live a bit later than we hoped for. So that was kind of a hard part because we really had to.

Speaker 2: 25:57

We had a marketing plan ready already for quite a while but we didn't really know when our live date was going to be so we couldn't really push at uh like weeks from start like right this day it's gonna happen like do that do that prep for a couple weeks from start. Um, so that was for us a bit, uh, more difficult, but um, yeah, if you get the planning right and you don't get into a bump somewhere yeah and then that's not an issue.

Speaker 1: 26:25

Okay, so it's like getting your numbers straight, getting all the legal documentation straight, those kind of things.

Speaker 2: 26:30

Yeah, legal documentation and some well, during the process, some things that just took some longer than we anticipated, but you're live now.

Speaker 1: 26:41

You already had an initial investor already stepping in right, so that gives you a nice head start.

Speaker 2: 26:46

yeah, for sure so uh, we had an anchor investor and that really helped um getting and I think everyone in crowdfunding uh has an anchor investor uh. So that's, I think, also one of the requirements to have someone else set the valuation. Yeah, because uh the platform itself uh looks at basically that person to set the valuation, so that the platform itself looks at basically that person to set the valuation so that the crowd does get a fair offer.

Speaker 2: 27:12

So yeah, in our first day I think we had 900 000 or something. We hit 900 000, so now we're over a million in the first week. So I think we're now at 1 million 100 000. So there, we go yeah, we're moving fast and fast, so that's really nice, cool, and so we're hoping that the second week we'll get to that 2 million milestone yeah and uh, yeah and go in.

Speaker 1: 27:34

So until when does the campaign run?

Speaker 2: 27:36

it's three weeks in total uh I think in the 28th of may, 28th of may 28th of May.

Speaker 1: 27:42

Okay, oh, wow, that's day one of Upstream Festival, so we'll see if we can drink champagne on the end of that day.

Speaker 2: 27:50

That would be great.

Speaker 1: 27:51

So, yeah, I think, if you're listening to this podcast and if you're thinking like, hey, you know, I'm first of all curious what these guys are building and what they're doing, I would say, go check it out. But then definitely go to invest or check out the crowdfunding campaign, um, and you can do small right, it starts at 250 it starts at 250 euros, yeah, so it's uh really low key yeah, you want yeah but you can also do 100 000, so 100 000 is also

Speaker 1: 28:16

okay, yeah there you go 100 000 euro. That's where you start. Um no great. So we're going to follow it and you probably have a dashboard on your computers yeah, for sure, every morning exciting part, we had Bob Hendricks in the past episode, who just closed his crowdfunding round when we recorded the podcast. So let's hope, let's hope this podcast helps a little bit also cool fingers, crossed fingers crossed.

Speaker 1: 28:40

I think we'll do very well. Go check it out, Check the show notes. Now it's time for listeners' questions that we always bring in, which is really interesting because I think in this case there's people you actually know that send in the questions. Cool, First question. First question is from Willem Kestelo, who you know really well. He co-founded Fizee and now new company is called.

Speaker 2: 29:05

Photonic.

Speaker 1: 29:05

Photonic. There we go, he says. First of all, give Sander my warm regards. I think it's really cool and impressive how well they're doing with the Varmte. Well, I would say, willem, go invest in the crowdfunding campaign. But thanks for the compliment. His first question is what is the most surprising characteristic or insight about yourself that you have discovered in the past year? And then the follow-up is and how do you use that superpower in the next phase of scaling up?

Speaker 2: 29:36

Wow, superpower. I don't think I have any superpowers, but the qualities that I discovered, um, I think keeping that helicopter view, uh, so really keeping that oversight on all parts of the business. So we're a quite a complex business model because we're vertically integrated so you have operations, um, so you have installations, you have assembly, you have service and then you have marketing. You have sales, b2c, b2b, yeah, finance teams, so there's a lot of assets to the company and kind of keeping the high overview of how every part is doing and seeing where, at what time, the focus needs to go.

Speaker 2: 30:25

And that's always a different part of the company depending on the face. Yeah, it's something that I learned along the way and I think that is really helpful, also in the scaling phase, because when we scale up further, your role also changes more away from operationally, more to basically keeping oversight and basically setting the KPIs and discussing the KPIs with the more operational team members. So I think that's a very helpful quality.

Speaker 1: 31:00

I think that's a great quality HelicopterView, so that is a superpower. I mean you're very humble saying it's not a superpower, but I think that's a great quality helicopter view, so that is a superpower. I mean you're very humble saying it's not a superpower, but I think that's one of the superpowers that you need to get the company to the next level and probably also where it got you now. So good, one great question. Thanks, willem. The next question is from Jan-Peter Versluis, who is the founder of Solar Monkey which we obviously also know.

Speaker 1: 31:21

We haven't done a podcast episode with him yet, so maybe we should do that. His question is how do you see the interaction between heat pumps and solar panels and how do you see those markets move towards each other in the future? Oh, cool. Very interesting question and obviously he asks this because he's into the space of solar panels, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 31:41

Yeah, so that's a very interesting question, like the whole energy landscape is changing, uh, very quick, and that's also why I like it so much to be in this space, and I think it makes a fair point on coupling like solar panels and heat pumps. We're getting to a more dynamic electricity grid, basically more decentralized, more dynamic in the sense that we'll have overshoots during the day and undershoots of capacity in the evenings, so you get more price fluctuations, and heat pumps are the biggest electricity consumers, next to charging your car, if you have your own charger but, that's quite difficult in a lot of areas in the city.

Speaker 2: 32:23

So heat pumps will be, from a lot of households, the biggest energy consumer and being able to have a bit of variety in your heat pump settings. So turning it on a bit earlier instead of later, for example, to already heat a home even though it might consume more energy at the end, because you consume it while your solar panels are on it's probably cheaper.

Speaker 1: 32:50

When there's a peak of energy, you can use it.

Speaker 2: 32:52

Exactly, you can already use it to heat part of your homes. So that dynamic control is something that is very important and that we're working really hard on. So all our software is already ready for that at the low level, and now we're really building the features on top of that.

Speaker 1: 33:10

So that's yeah, so that's a very interesting moving part and I think that's also a super interesting part that people think about the hardware, right, I think people think about pumps and solar panels and they think about you know all the stuff that you do, but it's, in the end, it's just how smart you make the software components definitely that really gets you to the final point, yeah cool.

Speaker 2: 33:31

Yeah, so we're. In that sense we're more a software company than a hardware company as well, we have more software developers than hardware engineers and that software part is something that's now already so important, and it's only becoming more and more important in the future um, so everyone who buys our heat pump is already ready. Like with one push on the button we can give them the features for the future there we go, there we go.

Speaker 1: 33:54

Uh, great question, jan peter. Thank you very much and you'll get that invite for a next podcast episode. Um, the next question is a really practical question, hank mayerink. Um, his question is what are the minimum isolation or energy label requirements for your solution to be effective in fully getting off gas?

Speaker 2: 34:12

oh, that's uh. I don't think you can just pinpoint one minimum isolation or energy label, because it also depends on your system. In english, what is that? Uh your your heat delivery system. So you like your, your radiators or floor heating or what you have.

Speaker 1: 34:31

Yeah, and that's a challenge, right. Many people still have radiators in kind of slightly older homes, exactly so maybe it.

Speaker 2: 34:39

It's easy to to think of the extreme. So if you have a very, very old home that is not insulated at all, it still has single glass and there's still wind blowing through the walls almost and you have radiators that are very like these old school radiators that require very high temperature, to emit any heat, then you need a high temperature to get your heat in your, your house, to get your house at a comfortable temperature, and in that scenario we advise to first do some insulation.

Speaker 2: 35:13

yeah, but it's very on a home-to-home basis and we really don't see those scenarios anymore. Those are really old, like monumental buildings maybe still where that occurs.

Speaker 2: 35:26

But most of our customers that come in there's at least done something in insulation. So themselves, or the homeowners before them, they changed their windows once, maybe they did some roof insulation, and when they did that their radiators usually are still calculated to be big enough for the old situation. But now you have a bit of insulation there so your radiators can also. They're oversized, basically, so they can heat your home with a bit of a lower temperature because you need less power okay and that's the case in most households and that's what people don't realize.

Speaker 2: 36:05

but in most households you can already put your radiator or your gas-fired boiler to like 55 degrees and your home still will get, yeah, nice and comfortably warm, and in those scenarios it already pays pays off hugely to put the heat pump in there, because that's the biggest impact both on your label as on your energy bill. So as soon as you can do it, technically it's advised to do it, and then you can after that do further installation that we advise before you go for the all-electric step. So how we see it is most homes in the Netherlands are already ready for heat pump.

Speaker 2: 36:43

So install them as fast as possible because they have the biggest impact on gas usage and on energy label and on sustainability, then really look critically at okay, what is my heat demand in my home, do another insulation layer if it's required and then go for the all electric, because there you really need to size the heat pump kilowatts on your home, yeah.

Speaker 1: 37:06

and then you need to have enough solar panels. And then we get into the complicated Okay. Henk, I hope this answered your question. Actually, I know Henk really well and I know he is redoing his house, so maybe go check out the website, Henk and then you know, just ask. This was a good start. The final question is from bob hendrix. We already mentioned him, founder of loop biotech. Um, oh, interesting question what is the most memorable client you've had and why?

Speaker 2: 37:33

oh, the most memorable client, yeah, um, I think it's whoa. I get a couple of names now through my mind, but I think I'll go for john willem. He is our first client of the heat cycle, first commercial client, so we did pilot clients before that, so they're all individually very memorable as well. But john william was really enthusiastic. He saw our article and f day that we just started with the heat cycle and from there he reached out and he wanted our solution. He was our first uh heat cycle customer and he has quite a lot of like, quite a big home and quite a lot of water usage, so he had great savings from the from the start.

Speaker 2: 38:11

And he's also our first Pompeo customer so he's been excited, and then also with the Pompeo. It's also one of the best savers from the Pompeo, so I think his payback time was like one or maybe two winters. Oh, nice and yeah it's just a very friendly guy Very enthusiastic.

Speaker 1: 38:29

Yeah, so he's an innovator, not even an early adopter. I think he's an innovator, then, right.

Speaker 3: 38:33

Yeah, reading the newspaper saying let's go for it, yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1: 38:37

Why is it called Pompio?

Speaker 2: 38:39

So it's a bit of a word joke. Our company name is the warmter yeah, and it's a warm to pump yeah, so it makes the warm to pump yeah. And our ao stands for air operated, so we had the pump wp, which is the heat pump for our heat cycle, and wp stands for waste pump, so the, the, yeah, the latter stand for something and now we're going with the electric upgrade. That's the pump T and that's for tap water Pump T.

Speaker 1: 39:06

Wow, okay, cool. See the catalog there. Cool. Thank you, Bob, for asking that final question on the customer, and, jan-willem, thank you for being a first customer, I guess, and having those savings really quick. Those were the questions. So, sander, thanks for sharing your story here. Uh, I think it's been really insightful to learn about your business and and also how the crowdfunding is going, and obviously we'll keep checking in with you and my and and have that champagne ready on the 28th of may yeah, but obviously the journey continues much longer.

Speaker 1: 39:36

Um, we'll put all the links in the show notes, as I mentioned, and as always, we close with a song that you have selected, so would you like to introduce the song and explain why?

Speaker 2: 39:46

yes, I'd like to introduce sing my dream around. It's a very, very happy song and last year and a half, I think, my girlfriend sometimes picks a song and then puts it on repeat and usually it drives me completely nuts. I think like, okay, come on, put something else on. But with this song, I don't know, it just made me happy every time I listened to it. And then she wakes up earlier than me so I kind of wake up and hear this song in the shower and it kind of makes me happy to go to work again and gives me a lot of energy.

Speaker 1: 40:14

So yeah, that's why that's a great introduction. I hope you get happy from this song as well. Thank you for listening. One thing if you haven't bought your ticket for Upstream Festival yet, buy it now. Upstreamfestivalcom 28th to 29th of May. Until next time keep it up.

Speaker 3: 41:19

Thank you, you are my dream around, my sweet desire. You are the air, the moon that's in the sky. I see the rays that glow on all the people. Yes, they know that I'm so deep in love. Day after day, I'm feeling very happy Since you came, I knew you were the one. I want a love to keep me going. Baby, I close my eyes and all I dream is you. Sing, sing, sing, sing my dream around. Do-do-do-do-do-do-do, sing my dream around. Sing, sing, sing, sing my dream around. Do, do, do, do, do, do, do. Sing my dream. I want you to stay here beside me, honey, put your lips on mine and take my mind tonight. You are my light, my star, my rain and fire. All I can do is dream. It's always real. Day after day, I'm feeling very happy Since you came, I knew you were the one I wanna know to keep me going. Baby, I close my eyes and all I dream is you.

Speaker 3: 42:48

See, see, see, see my dream around. Do, do, do, do, do, do, do. See my dream around. See, see, see, see my dream around. Do, do, do, do, do, do, do. See my dream, see, see, see, see my dream around. See, see, see, see my dream around. See my dream. I want you to stay here beside me. I want you to stay by my side. I want you to stay here beside me. I want you to stay here beside me, honey. I want you to stay by my side. Thank you.