Speaker 1: 0:01

Up next is a conversation with Joeri Schoemaker on a mission to make waste-free shopping available for all, with Peter Pott, and in this episode we'll cover driving system change through business, going from growth to getting acquired, to bankruptcy, to a rebirth, and how to push forward as a founder. I'm your host, lars Kramer, and this is Start to Scale, the podcast where we explore the scale-up journeys of remarkable founders, and Joeri is a remarkable founder. He is the founder and CEO of Peter Pot, one of the most talked about startups in the Netherlands. The online supermarket known for using jars instead of plastic packaging experienced rapid growth since its launch in 2019, raising 12.5 million in capital and getting to 10 million in revenues. However, in 2022, the company encountered financial troubles and, despite a takeover, faced what seemed like a final blow at the end of 2023, when it went bankrupt. Now, in 2024, peter Pult is back in the startup phase with a new round of crowdfunding and, as always, joeri remains determined to make it a success.

Speaker 1: 1:04

Welcome, joeri, great to have you here. Thank you. Thank you for the invitation. Round of crowdfunding and, as always, juri remains determined to make it a success. Welcome, yuri, great to have you here. Thank you. Thank you for the invitation. We are recording this today in utrecht at crossroads where you just had a talk on stage. I was there. What was it like to share your story to the utrecht crowd?

Speaker 2: 1:18

it was a very good experience in that sense that talking about the story also always helps me reflecting, and the questions afterwards also, so, um, it was a great experience yeah, going going back to your own story and getting new insights from the questions you get.

Speaker 1: 1:33

Well, um, I think this podcast is too short to cover your whole story and everything we want to discuss, but we're going to try anyway. Um, we actually scheduled this podcast and I looked at my calendar exactly a year ago sept. September 2023, which, due to all the circumstances that we'll talk about soon, you had to cancel. So I'm really happy that we have the conversation now, because now we can also look back on the time and also look forward on what you're doing now.

Speaker 2: 1:56

Was that a?

Speaker 1: 1:56

year ago. It's a year ago. Yeah, does it feel long?

Speaker 2: 2:00

Does it feel longer? No, it's yeah. Does it feel longer? Yeah, I don't know how you say it. The year went by very fast, Very fast yeah, we'll get there soon.

Speaker 1: 2:10

First, there's four statements that you can answer with true or false.

Speaker 1: 2:13

Ready. First one. You can only build a new economy by understanding the old False. Peter Potts will be world's first profitable online packaging-free supermarket. True, the large investments we received made us scale too quickly. True, I frequently questioned my abilities as an entrepreneur. True, there we go. Okay, let's go to that highlight of the company. Soon after you started and you just mentioned it on stage as well you had a wait list of 40,000 customers wanting your product. You go from zero revenue to 10 million revenue in two and a half years. You had to relocate to larger warehouses five times. You were on a roll. So maybe for people outside of the netherlands, um, can you explain? You know what was it? What's the vision and perhaps the proposition behind peter pot, because some international visitors might not still know it.

Speaker 2: 3:14

Yeah, so, uh, plastic packaging is is a problem that that everybody maybe sees or experiences. However, the solution to reduce your plastic waste, or packaging waste, is the real challenge and we try to, yeah, take this challenge to make it more convenient to reduce your packaging waste. And the way we did this? By offering a delivery service, an online supermarket which delivers throughout the whole netherlands and belg, wherever you live, to offer you a way to do your groceries without packaging. We do this by putting all your groceries in glass jars. Deliver to your door. The jars have deposits. Next delivery we take back your empty bottles, wash and reuse. So it's a waste-free system and available for all Cool.

Speaker 1: 4:01

And you just showed in the presentation before. It's kind of like the milkman example, right people?

Speaker 2: 4:05

who are old enough might remember the milkman.

Speaker 1: 4:07

Yeah, it's the milkman.

Speaker 2: 4:08

Yeah, they deliver it in glass bottles of with milk. Yeah, we do it with all types of groceries, so mostly pantry groceries, which we started with and now so with with long shelf dates, yeah, so all the goods outside of your fridge, right, and now we're moving to a bit of more fresh products as well okay, cool, uh, big jars, and.

Speaker 1: 4:30

And then there must be an inspiration behind this, um, why you're doing all this.

Speaker 2: 4:34

So what was the specific moment that made you decide that that's going for a company like this was your path before this one, I I started one, started before and delved where I found out after one and a half year where's where's, where's my passion.

Speaker 2: 4:52

Because we, we, yeah, we didn't make impact for for the future world, I think, and and that's where I really wanted to be. So I I got back to my studies, uh, in the masters, and I knew in your, in that master's program, you could graduate on your own idea for a new startup. So I dedicated that time with a year-long brainstorming to find a new challenge, yeah, within the impact challenges, and my examples were were consumer brands, because I think my one of my strengths is within branding marketing, and some consumer brands that that really think one of my strengths is within branding marketing, and some consumer brands that really made the impactful choice, the attractive choice. So the Vegetarian Butcher, tony Chocolone, yvonne de Bon these were brands that tried to take the impactful choice out of the niche to a bigger market with a very strong brand, strong marketing.

Speaker 1: 5:42

And quite successfully. They did yeah.

Speaker 2: 5:46

Those were my examples and my dreams to become one of them okay and then.

Speaker 1: 5:49

But then you jumped into the packaging. I mean, that's the other side, right, it's perhaps even the ugly side of the business, because normally it's old school retailers trying to, you know, get out products with a lot of packaging. So what, particularly how did you get into this part?

Speaker 2: 6:03

um, Well, actually I found out that this is sort of one of a trending challenge, a trending topic, because at that time also, plastic was one of the public enemies number one. So I just found there sort of a gap in the market where a problem didn't have the right solution yet. So in this sense, yeah, entrepreneurs go for gap in the markets, but then in this impact. So coincidentally, it was packaging. I myself wasn't a zero-waste warrior, I didn't go to package-free stores, but I saw this problem and I also wanted to get rid of my packaging waste. Right, but being not so dark green going to these stores, yeah, so it happened to be packaging but it could also been totally something else.

Speaker 1: 6:53

Okay, but you picked the problem that you wanted to go for and then where I saw a huge opportunity, yeah, to have impact and there was a like a blue ocean yeah, and that blue ocean, because if you look at grocery retailing, particularly online grocery retailing, we'll get to that. You're becoming the first profitable packaging-free company. But across the board, online grocery retailers are losing money. Right, albert Heim is losing money, I think, jumbo also, but Picnic, I think, had four weeks of profitability last year um, but hundreds of millions there you go after hundreds of millions of loss.

Speaker 1: 7:30

Um so how can you be on the way to profitability? Now how does that work?

Speaker 2: 7:35

uh, good question. So I think what also triggered your questions like why did we get into this business? We, we had no idea. We had no idea how hard it would be and that an online grocery service would be that hard.

Speaker 2: 7:51

So when you ask the first question, do you need to understand the old economy? We didn't come from retail, we didn't come from food, but this also helped us in the naivety and finding ways that others didn't. But how can we become profitable? It's a totally different scale. So these companies are set up for the mass market. Picnic only wants to deliver to the mass market and have such a scale, and they're also about their valuation and with a big exit, et cetera. And the way we could become profitable is on a smaller scale, with very flexible costs, not everything, in-house, outsourced everything, very small team. I don't think that Michiel Muller is signing up for the company size we now have. Right, we might become, in the future, growing and become bigger. Yeah, but I mean the businesses that Michiel Muller steps in should become a change maker in the mass market. Become bigger. Yeah, but I mean the, the businesses the zoom other steps in.

Speaker 1: 8:46

Yeah, should, uh, you know, become a change maker in the in the mass market and we are again a bit of niche yeah, and then you're now back into, uh, kind of the startup phase, which we'll talk about in a moment, and I think to get actually to get to that part of the story and and why you are back now in the company and building with the passion you've always had. I think it's also good to dissect a little bit of the hardship that you had to get here and it's well documented in the media. So there's plenty of podcasts, articles about the different parts of your story. You just described five chapters in the in the story um. But can you, can you perhaps, for those that haven't seen that um quickly summarizes those five that you just and I know this is almost impossible, but maybe paint a picture on when you started with this great idea to the moment where, well, let's say, to the moment of bankruptcy?

Speaker 2: 9:34

I'll try to pitch it in one minute. There we go so first phase started from the bottom, from the attic. We tried to validate. We were in Rotterdam, very small scale. Then we had some trouble to scale it further. We didn't see how to get funding to roll out nationwide. But then we saw opportunities. We got some angel funding from Scalab founders. We did a crowdfunding which was the ignition for nationwide rollout. That was the moment that also Corona came in.

Speaker 1: 10:09

This also gave us, of course, an extra yeah, because everybody was now not going into the shops, so they were going for offline, or that's one. Yeah for online.

Speaker 2: 10:19

So e-commerce was booming, yeah, but secondly, people had way way more time to think about their choices, to make sustainable choices. So this really helped.

Speaker 2: 10:28

This was another effect we didn't took into. Uh um, so we rolled out nationwide, got lots of media attention. Then we had a wait list which grew to 40 000 customers. With this wait list we could easily get funding. So we raised 3 million, first from 3 Dutch impact funds, scaled up further operations team and then we got a funding round of 9 million from a London VC. That's when we thought, okay, now we're really a Champions League player, now we're about to be successful. But we set up too big, huge warehouse, 10,000 square meters, huge team. We had 100 employees at one moment. Set up way too big for the growth. That didn't continue as the first two and a half years after corona ended, ukraine wore inflation. Then we had to turn around. The business didn't make it in time, had a sort of an exit handover, not much, not not a financial exit because it was to establish entrepreneurs in the space.

Speaker 2: 11:33

Right, your kind of partners in, yeah, yeah established in this space, I wouldn't say okay, uh. But on another kind of entrepreneurship, they had a caterer business, they had had a festival. It's more hands-on, but they also couldn't turn it around. Then I came back as a sort of CEO, big term for a small company. But I came back, tried to turn it around, didn't make it bankruptcy. And then there was an opportunity for Riddick Crowdfunding to restart again and get rid of all the fixed costs, flexible costs.

Speaker 1: 12:08

Now on our way to black figures, yeah exciting times and I know asking you to pitch is I didn't give the minute, but you did it probably under a minute Shows how well you are in pitching. But also I think the rollercoaster ride that you described just a minute must have been insane. I think many founders will not sit here and do it all again, and that probably has to do with the fact that you want to drive a mission right Make that change in the world. So I think we can only applaud that. The one thing I was thinking because you talked about the investors getting on board. You know first the 3 million and then the other ones coming in have you ever considered because I know you're a great storyteller, you're a great pitcher I know we shouldn't be talking about this, but you were once the national champion of pitching in the Netherlands have you ever considered that perhaps your storytelling was too good, that all these investors wanted to get on board? I think in hindsight, that's the case.

Speaker 2: 13:03

I mean to that extent, I wasn't a good CEO. I think I was a founder, but not a good CEO. I didn't have that experience. So, in hindsight also, why did these investors trust me, or us, but also me with 9 million? And yeah, I think part of it is that I'm a good storyteller, I'm a good marketeer and I'm also good with people. I mean, that's also sales, I think yeah so and and yeah, they didn't notice all the the flaws I have and the fact that I wasn't good with financials at all.

Speaker 2: 13:41

But we had a big CFO, so we got.

Speaker 4: 13:44

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 13:48

So yeah, I think that's yeah, and then running a company towards, you know, driving revenue growth all the way, which is kind of the typical VC type. Right, because you had all the big delivery services back then who were well-backed in the time, where also, I think, money was. In Dutch we say het kl's a lot of capitals coming in yeah, supporting companies like yours and um.

Speaker 1: 14:11

But then things changed, right, Things obviously changed quite a bit. Funding landscape changed. I think in that time Growth was difficult. What was the biggest reason for the backdrop in growth back in 2020?

Speaker 2: 14:23

Yeah, so it was, on the one hand, the end of corona. Yeah, okay, a huge one, and then, together with this, the war in Ukraine, the inflation yeah, and so that made our prices very fluctuating, like the buying price were more expensive, but then also the funding. The whole investor industry was changing rapidly. People suddenly wanted to profit instead of scaling only on revenue. Yeah, and we were far far from profitable and we were far far from profitable.

Speaker 1: 14:54

What is the hard part? To move from a company geared for revenue growth, changing that into a company geared for profit growth?

Speaker 2: 15:07

or profit actually at all. Yeah, it demands a totally different focus and also maybe different people. I think at one moment, martijn, my co-founder, and I had a discussion about like how, how the future company would look like if we would be able to turn it around, and then we also already concluded like it would be a smaller business, and then I think we had the honest conversation that martin really wanted to help it to be there yeah but thereafter this wouldn't be his place.

Speaker 2: 15:34

Help it to be there, yeah, but thereafter this wouldn't be his place, and so I think it asked different and a different mindset. I think these other entrepreneurs that took over our business had a totally different mindset.

Speaker 1: 15:47

What was different about their mindset?

Speaker 2: 15:50

They wanted to make money. Ah yeah, and that's also about business. And they saw the revenue coming in. We were making almost a million a month but we were losing on top of that half million, so we had a crazy amount of costs and they were like we can figure something out to make this one million not go to all kinds of things but just to my bank account that's the opportunity they saw and that mindset.

Speaker 2: 16:14

We were never about making money, all kinds of things, but just to my bank account, yeah, that's the opportunity they saw. Yeah, and that mindset. We were never about making money. We thought about that, maybe that big exit in the future and growing, so that that's the whole mindset. Like they were really on every euro. Yeah, and of course, they couldn't turn it around because the depths or the negative spiral was set in.

Speaker 1: 16:34

Yeah, but that's a different uh, yeah but it must have been a great learning because, I mean, you're a relatively young entrepreneur back then, uh, with a skill set that is perhaps different than you know running a large organization, very complex organization and looking at other entrepreneurs coming like oh, I'm just going to problem solve and make sure that cash flow works and that these, these things work.

Speaker 2: 16:55

And also one thing we wanted to file for bankruptcy before we found out these guys wanted to continue. We filed for bankruptcy before we even had debts, Before we I mean, maybe the first invoices weren't paid within the payment terms, but not official, huge debts already and I found out with these guys there are endless possibilities with with other entrepreneurs that also want to continue making business with you or wanted to get a bit of their debt returned. So there are endless possibilities to find solutions with them yeah with your debitors or creditors.

Speaker 2: 17:36

I always swap them around creditors which I didn't know. I thought okay but, if I can't pay you, it's done. But everybody wants to think along and nobody filed for bankruptcy out of themselves.

Speaker 1: 17:49

Interesting. Yeah, that's kind of the business sense and sometimes it also helps well in these cases. You said not too much established entrepreneurs, but I also hear this quite often when you work with entrepreneurs who are a bit older, because they've seen it before and they know the ways to uh, to make things work and that's peter, one of our investors yeah he was with one of the funds, but he's an entrepreneur himself.

Speaker 2: 18:08

Yeah, he's in the 60s and he, he's been an entrepreneur all his life and he, he kept fighting with us with also these creative solutions and that's that set an entrepreneur investor different than a financial investor.

Speaker 1: 18:20

Yeah for sure, but still, in the end you had to file for bankruptcy, which in the Netherlands this is, I mean, in the US it's a learning experience In the Netherlands. I think it has a very negative connotation if you go bankrupt. But what was the impact that that moment had on you personally? What was the impact?

Speaker 2: 18:41

um, yeah, it was uh really heavy, of course, because at that moment I really thought, okay, it's finished yeah I had had one very heavy period before when actually these guys took over the business, because then I had the feeling like, ooh, I personally failed instead of it didn't work and we together failed with the big investors, big advisors. So that was my hardest period and this period I thought it was over, but I tried to see it maybe as okay, this is it. We gave everything. I even came back and we gave it everything. So personally, that gave a bit of compensation feeling, let's say. But yeah, the next day already I had a call with Peter the investor and we already saw opportunities to continue again. That's nice.

Speaker 1: 19:33

To make the rebirth at work, and that is nice Having somebody who trusts you, who can guide you, can help you, support you along the way from the beginning. So that's perhaps the most important question. What is, then, the thing that pushed you to start again? Because it would also be very normal to say this was it? I'm going to work at a big corporate for the rest of my life. I'm never going to be an entrepreneur again. What made you decide to become a startup again and start again?

Speaker 2: 20:03

Yeah. So I think a few things. I was also reflecting about this after the keynote and the questions afterwards. So one, I think it's because of the others. So Peter, and also this Dominique was one of the guys who took it over. I work now together with him and I learn from each other because we're so different. I think also one of the reasons is learning. So I learned, of course, in the growth phase to be such a startup or scale up founder. I learned that's totally different from being, let's say, an MKB or just a profitable business entrepreneur. So I'm learning again so much and I used to be not good or involved in finance operations etc and now I am above on everything. I'm above on finance, above an operation. So I learned so much about the half of the business I never did anything in so learning. And thirdly, I feel personally very uh yeah I appreciate it.

Speaker 1: 21:04

Yeah, yeah or or.

Speaker 2: 21:05

I feel I have worth in this world? Yeah, because if I wouldn't continue with peter potts, it it would probably uh no no one else would restart.

Speaker 2: 21:16

It would probably no one else would restart, so it feels like okay, I personally make impact, where others maybe ask me also like hey, Juri, when are you going to do the next thing? Right, Because there's a double. I feel like when we progressive or left people, we say we like to give in a bit for the bigger picture, like the income taxes, to help others, but when we talk personally, it's always like what do you want to have in your career? What do you want to be your next step?

Speaker 1: 21:46

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 21:46

And I, for myself, don't ask that question like what I want to do. No, where can I deliver the most value? And I think that's at Peter Potts at this moment I can deliver the most value. And I think that's at peter potts at this moment I can deliver the most value. And yeah, I don't have a high salary, I don't have a big career.

Speaker 1: 22:02

I, I bring value yeah, and it's not the easiest path no but perhaps the most rewarding one in a different way.

Speaker 1: 22:08

Yeah, yeah, that's nice and I think that's really a good way of looking at you know why start any business at all? Um, and then trying to do the thing that you think makes most impact in the world that you are connected to, with whatever you can do, because, indeed, there's probably ways. There's no, not probably. There's definitely easier ways to make money and do a bit of impact. But I think what you're doing with peter pot makes a lot of sense to have you do it and you run it, and now you run a really small team again, right, six people. Six people. Back to the start of times.

Speaker 2: 22:40

Yeah, yeah, I love it. I think that's where also my strength is. Yeah, and again, I'm learning on multiple aspects, so we're again like a sailboat, like a sailor instead of a cruise ship. Ah, sailor instead of a cruise ship. Ah, okay, yeah, so easy to to steer, yeah. And uh, yeah, the hands-on, like finding good people, finding good partnerships uh, drive the community with the small team.

Speaker 1: 23:04

I think that's where my strength is, and also with the learnings of. So in a way you could say, you're now a serial entrepreneur who has multiple experiences in his own company. In one business in one business. Um, because now I think you'll also change quite a bit in the business model right, how the cost is structure is built. Maybe that's also an interesting insight for other people's people building their businesses. So what is the some of the most tangible things that you've changed in this profitability model versus what you did before?

Speaker 2: 23:30

yeah, so before we tried to keep as many things in-house as possible, so only delivery was outsourced, so we could deliver throughout the whole Netherlands because we work with Dynalogic like a DIL or personnel. But the rest we had in-house. So we did the order picking, we did the washing, we had a huge team and in this way we made sure also we had the biggest quality, because everyone in Peterpot cares about our customers and quality. But this had huge fixed costs and also the warehouse. We had to rent a warehouse for growth over the coming years. So we had to make assumptions this growth etc. And now what we did is we outsourced everything. So another partner does the filling, another partner order picking, delivery partner order picking or delivery and other partner the washing. And we are only the sort of connecting the dots right doing the buying, the assortment, uh, marketing, customer service yeah, that's it. And uh, and that makes it all flexible costs right instead of fixed.

Speaker 1: 24:28

Yeah, the risks are smaller and you also are more flexible when you want to grow, which actually in the break just now, we talked about companies. I think it was revenue per employee and this is completely off topic, but do you know what is one of the companies that has the highest revenue in the world per employee?

Speaker 2: 24:49

No good question. Another startup fellow entrepreneur that I know for a long time now or since he started. He has a startup and he asked me like are you going to really make this work with six employees to have an annual turnover of like five to six million? Then you have a huge revenue per employee. Yeah, and that's indeed what we're doing now and, of course, because the operation is outsourced.

Speaker 1: 25:14

But I don't know which company. So it is in the lines of obviously Apple, microsoft, etc. Are in there because they're tech companies, but it's OnlyFans. You wouldn't get that. But OnlyFans, apparently has like insane revenues, but they only have 43 people and in a way they're also connecting, but in a different way. Let's not get into that. So how many? What was the revenue? Yeah, so I have to look, we'll put it in the show notes. Three I'm getting a note here. Three billion, thirty billion, what? 30 million, a lot 30 million per employee.

Speaker 1: 25:45

That's what I said. Yeah, but I think it's more Okay. We're going to look this up. We're going to put it in the show notes yeah, yeah. Yeah, it should be more than that, I guess. Anyway, so to the point of setting up your business in a way that is very scalable, very flexible, using the network around you. Great learning, big learning.

Speaker 3: 26:07

So much more to talk about, but we'll go to a quick break and then we'll be back. You're listening to the podcast of Up Rotterdam. We help startups scale and grow their business by offering access to talent, access to international markets and access to capital. Curious how we can make the network work for you? Go to uprotterdamcom. This podcast was made possible by the City of Rotterdam.

Speaker 1: 26:29

And we're back with this Crossroads special of Start to Sales podcast. The thing is, we always talk in the break about things we haven't talked about, and I think you mentioned one thing, jury, about you know I asked you about becoming profitable as a company and then during the break you said something, so maybe explain how. What's another part of the profitability that we haven't covered?

Speaker 2: 26:51

Yeah, so it reminded me because we say we're the first one in the world that will make a package-free business on a nationwide scale profitable. No one else has done this and I was in touch always with the founders of comparable businesses in Germany, in Spain, in Italy, in Switzerland Also online supermarkets package-free but they never reached our scale because of the marketing PR we had. So they were all jealous about the PR and marketing we had in the Netherlands because that made them never reach the scale we have and there is still a certain scale needed to make this business profitable and that's the reason why we might become.

Speaker 1: 27:36

Yeah, and how are the other ones doing in the other countries?

Speaker 2: 27:39

All bankrupt. Yeah, okay, no one's left.

Speaker 1: 27:42

So during Corona a lot of people Same yeah.

Speaker 2: 27:45

No one's left in Europe. There's one in the States. Okay, it's called Bring Back. No, sorry.

Speaker 1: 27:55

The Rounds, the Rounds. Okay, so they're still yeah.

Speaker 2: 27:58

And they now raised again around, I think, 20 or 30 million In the States. It's always it's a different size, but yeah, that's still one. And in Australia the physical package-free supermarkets work quite well.

Speaker 1: 28:13

Okay, because people still pick it up there, I guess.

Speaker 2: 28:17

Yeah, it has way more density and people apparently find it very important.

Speaker 1: 28:22

But like it's every Albert Heijn around the corner, there's around the corner a package right around the corner package free store okay, um, and, and then about the storytelling, because you mentioned, obviously you're a great storyteller, but there was also something nice, I think, about your strategy is that you did a launch in every city maybe that's. That's an interesting tactic that others also might be able to copy. Can you explain how you did that?

Speaker 2: 28:42

yeah. So when, when we think about pr, we always want to get in the nationwide news in the nationwide papers and of course, we also wanted that and in the end we made this work. So I personally was very proud. But local media news also works very, very strong. Lots of people you you don't maybe know, but they read local newspapers and local news, they get on their socials, etc. So when we rolled out nationwide, we had a delivery partner that delivered throughout the whole Netherlands. So we could have said, okay, starting today, peter Pot delivers in the whole Netherlands, and then we would have got some nationwide news and that's it. But instead we said every day we roll out to a different city. First day we said Peter Pot now delivers as first, europe's first package-free online grocery supermarket. Today in Breda, right, breda founds this fantastic, writes about it. Next day we go to Utrecht, we say the same. Today in Utrecht. Utrecht writes about it. Next day, apeldoorn. Next day Enschede, next day Amsterdam. So every local news and this made it really nice, really sticky a multiplier, yeah cool.

Speaker 1: 29:48

I think that's a great tip for people trying to grow I mean, everybody finds it some way.

Speaker 2: 29:51

And combining with ads, by the way oh, so we did very successful ads locally in the city. Yeah, where we got on that day local media attention and that made a multiplier. Super cool, super cool, great tactic but still works. By the way, the ads we deliver in the whole Netherlands for a few years now but, still the best ad that works is saying Peter Pot now also in Lutjeput. We deliver for three years there, but everybody, oh, that's my village, my city.

Speaker 1: 30:21

Lovely, lovely. Okay, soon we'll see them in Rotterdam-Ommoord Super targeted, that's where I live, okay, rotterdam Omroort Promotion Fund here, Okay. And another question we often ask our founders is do you have hobbies? But we stopped asking that question because then they all say no, or I want to, but you actually do something. Really, I would say special, for many years now already, and it has to do with risk. So what is that? What is it all about?

Speaker 2: 30:49

I mean, everyone knows the board game Risk. Yes, and yeah, there was. I found out a few years ago. There was a Dutch championship Monopoly, a Dutch championship Coloniste van Koton, a Dutch championship Stratego, but there wasn't a Dutch championship Risk. Wow, I saw a gap in the market. So I started this event together with my sister, who doesn't like to play risk.

Speaker 1: 31:12

Oh, that's a great start.

Speaker 2: 31:13

She loves to play, to organize events and to do stuff with me. So together we started this and first edition sold out 300 competitors and now last edition was 600. It's an annual event, always in January, in the winter, and it's a hobby. Nice, cool thing, really cool.

Speaker 1: 31:36

And then I don't play that often Risk anymore, by the way but, I like organizing it yeah. I'm the judge during the day, so I can't play Risk and in this way, people think also I'm very.

Speaker 2: 31:47

I'm the judge during the day, so I can't play Risk and in this way people think also I'm like a Risk god, but I don't have to play, so I don't have to prove okay, you're the Risk chaperone, not the Risk god, cool.

Speaker 1: 31:57

So where can people sign up if they want to go? Nkarisknl wow, that's nkarisknl. There we go. Go check it out. It will be in the show notes. Perhaps in January you will be the risk god somewhere when it's happening. That's great. Now, juri, we go to listeners' questions, which always shines a different light on your story. Hopefully Some people you might even know I don't know Stefan Panhuizen. He is running Social Enterprise NL, I think, a big driving force for enterprises for good in this space. He said apparently you were supposed to appear in Systeem on de Schop, but once you got your ligament cruciated and the other time was probably when we were also in a conversation when you were in Dire Straits. So he hopes you're well and he still invites you to come back to Systeme op de Schop next time.

Speaker 1: 32:51

Until that time, he says. The question is to what extent is Peter Pott influencing other companies to work packaging-free as much as possible?

Speaker 2: 33:03

I think we do. When we had such high growth, we had huge advisors and they were also no, they also knew people in the boards of the albertines and they knew they were talking about us. So that's why, all the time, also try to introduce again a package-free system with the tap systems they were not so successful though right no why I?

Speaker 2: 33:24

I mean we were talking with them also about having our pre-filled jars in their stores. I believe in that concept. I don't believe in people bringing their own jars, which you always forget, or you're not going to drive your car with jars and have to fill your own jars. That's easy.

Speaker 2: 33:42

That didn't work also at Albert Heijn. I expected that. Hopefully they'll now try it again in another way. So that's one Eco Plaza. We were talking for a long time transparently telling about our process and our partners. Then they just copied us with our partners, which I think is good for system change. They could have told us a bit earlier what their incentive was. So these are examples where bigger companies adopt, and that's what we need, of course the bigger companies and also.

Speaker 2: 34:16

One big example is Kraft Heinz, the FMCG player. They altered their supply chain, they changed their operational system for us with supplying two of their big brands like Heinz Ketchup and de Ruiter Haagslag. Dutch sprinkles, chocolate sprinkles in huge big bags of 600 kilo.

Speaker 1: 34:34

Oh wow, my kids dream of that, both, actually.

Speaker 4: 34:36

Yeah you can dive into it.

Speaker 2: 34:38

So, these are examples where we drive system change.

Speaker 1: 34:41

Yeah for these really big corporates that normally don't change that fast.

Speaker 2: 34:45

Another innovation we were the first one with reusable wine bottles, because wine bottles that you bring to the glass bin they are recycled, but it costs a huge amount of energy. So actually single-use glass is way worse than sometimes a thin layer of plastic, oh wow. But plastic seems the enemy. But glass recycling is also an enemy yeah.

Speaker 2: 35:05

So we take back bottles, wash and reuse them with wine. So this was a huge innovation, and now other wine producers are also adopting this. And now there's a pilot with Tivoli in Utrecht, and that's a great example of a ripple effect we created.

Speaker 1: 35:24

And it's so interesting because it sounds, you know going. And it's so interesting because it sounds, you know going. Back to the milkman.

Speaker 1: 35:28

It sounds like that idea we had long time ago it's simple it's coming back, it's simple and we also understand more about the impact of plastics and the impact of recycling glass, as you say. Okay, great, well, uh, thanks stefan for that question. The next question is from a dear friend of mine, annette Veenstra, and I know Annette because she's really good with public relations and publicity. So her question is Peter Potts quickly gained a lot of media attention, and the influence of publicity can help you get in much faster as a new startup. It can also mean you grow faster than you can handle and that negative things also become very big. So has media attention done you more good or harm?

Speaker 2: 36:14

I think good always more good than harm. I think there ain't such thing as bad publicity. Yes, of course we also got lots of negative publicity around this negative spiral because we were so under Verhoogtglas.

Speaker 1: 36:31

Yeah, under the magnifying glass.

Speaker 2: 36:35

So, yes, we have to turn that around by getting positive media attention again, but again, as I said, compared to other initiatives in other countries, because of the huge media attention and PR we created. That's one of the big reasons that we grew so big and have these volumes.

Speaker 1: 36:56

But how do you build a relationship with the press? Because at one time they really take your story and say like, oh, everything is great, this guy is changing the world, and the next time you read something about you know, oh, shareholders are angry. So how do you, how do you then manage the relationship with with press?

Speaker 2: 37:13

uh, I always did it personally, so sometimes I tried with a press agency or freelancer, but in the end it always worked better to to do it myself. It takes, of course, time but.

Speaker 2: 37:21

I think it's worth the time, and with personal relations with journalists and being always very transparent and honest. Also in the good times, they could ask me anything and I would answer, also about figures and revenues, and that's what they liked and that built an easier relationship than I would say on some questions, like I can't say this, but, yes, also about the negative news they wanted to write. But they they at least gave me the opportunity to talk to them, yeah, to tell my view. Yeah, and of course, sometimes they say things that I'm not fully agreeing with, but that's also there. They also have to be very critical as a journalist. That's their job, yeah, so I think that's only good. Yeah, okay, but then you say building a relationship is important and doing it yourself, not through.

Speaker 2: 38:03

They also have to be very critical as a journalist. That's their job, so I think that's only good, yeah, okay.

Speaker 1: 38:07

But then you say building a relationship is important and doing it yourself, not through an agency Although there's great agencies out there, obviously but there's just the opportunity of having that relationship yourself.

Speaker 2: 38:17

Yeah, and again it's also what type of founders do you have? So I think I like that aspect so I put effort in it. But, there are of course type of founders that don't like this game or not that well enough. So then a press agency really helps, because they have this network and they know the relationships yeah makes sense, and sometimes it's probably a combination of both.

Speaker 1: 38:38

Great question. Thanks, annette.

Speaker 2: 38:40

We should have a better financial co-founder.

Speaker 1: 38:44

Yeah, that's the other part. Right, it's also things you cannot outsource, perhaps, or you could, or you shouldn't. Question from Roel. Thanks, roel, for organizing the Startup Podcast studio here today in Utrecht. Roel is from Startup Utrecht. What personal sacrifices have you made for the success of Peter Pot, and how have they affected your life outside of work? Have you made for the success of Peter Pot, and how have they affected your life outside of work?

Speaker 2: 39:08

I think sacrifice always sounds heavier than, let's say, we in this country have found ourselves lucky. So the sacrifices are yeah, never have earned a lot of money, low salaries, sometimes even no salary for six months last year in the negative spiral. But that's when I also set up sort of a side business doing marketing and branding for other startups. Yeah, sacrifice, yeah, time maybe, but that's entrepreneurship, that's what you also love, it's your child. So I don't I wouldn't say I sacrificed that much. Of course, as an entrepreneur, you know sometimes it's a bit more difficult with your own relationship, with your partner or with family and friends, but that's not a bigger deal than any other entrepreneur, I think yeah, entrepreneurship is about, so it's funny that you don't see the sacrifices um it's it's a, it's a way of life.

Speaker 2: 40:14

It's yeah, probably. Yeah, it's not a problem, it's a challenge wow, you're so optimistic here.

Speaker 1: 40:20

Um final question is from hyatt. Wow, she's also also a great woman. I'm not sure if you know her, but she runs Upshot helping. I think she's particularly strong in leadership support for Scalab founders. She says give Yuri my greetings, please. Her question is the following Despite the pain of dealing with costly mistakes and failures, which mistakes would you full-heartedly choose to repeat if you were in the position to turn back time? For Peter Potts?

Speaker 2: 40:52

Very good question, very nice question. So which mistakes would I sort of make again? It's a hard question. I would say I wouldn't. I think what happened had to happen. In hindsight it's painful like, oh, what if we knew before? What if we stared earlier? What if we didn't raise 9 million but just did 3 million, because what we did with 3 million was brilliant, and with 3 million again we would get this million, because what we did with 3 million was brilliant and with 3 million again we would get this small talented team and grid and we could steer. So things in hindsight I wouldn't have done, but it had to happen like this. And this is where we are, maybe for a reason. So, yeah, all the mistakes, yeah, some doing a bit different, but which would I make again? I think in hindsight, with the context, I would make them all again, but I wouldn't want to. I find it really difficult to name a mistake that I deliberately would make again.

Speaker 1: 42:08

I think none of the mistakes I would like to make again, right yeah, that's also an answer, and I think you partially answered it already, and that's why it's, I think, a nice but also hard question to think back, with the knowledge you have now, what you would have you know, put yourself through again.

Speaker 2: 42:29

Yeah and then indeed like if I would know what I know now. At that time, you know, maybe we wouldn't even have started because you that's part of the being a naive startup entrepreneur you don't see, see the mountain because you don't know it. And then you find it along the way. If we would have known.

Speaker 1: 42:53

Ask any successful entrepreneur that if you would have known up front what we were going through, if you would have started, most of them would say hell, no. But once you're in it, you're in it and it pushes you forward.

Speaker 2: 43:04

It reminds me of the founder of Enduvie. They are growing crazy and raise so much money. It's an AI company and also the founder was asked what if you wouldn't have done differently? He said I wouldn't have started. Because we have the mental trick as entrepreneurs, to always say how hard can it be? Yes, how hard can it be? We always tell ourselves, and then it's us. It's always so hard, but we say again how hard can it be?

Speaker 4: 43:31

yeah beautiful.

Speaker 1: 43:33

Um, that reminds me of so. Anyway, so many things. One of the things I'm, you might know, I'm involved in Blue City in the circular incubator, which in the beginning sounded like a really great idea to turn a 12 000 square meter deserted swimming pool into an incubator. But then you run in all to in all the shit of you know, having to do with an old building and I think anybody you ask on the team is same thing like would we do it again? Hell no but, was it?

Speaker 1: 43:56

is it a great journey? Yes, so it's the uphill battle. Um, I think that connects entrepreneurs. Um, and thanks for sharing that, uh, yuri. That brings us to the end uh of this and again. We could go on for a long time. I do recommend people if you're into yuri story. There's a lot of content online, also in other places, so we'll make sure that we put the links um to those articles and also some of the podcasts in our show notes. People can dive deeper. Is there any specific story that you would recommend people to listen, or any uh presentation or picture thing you did the one that, by the way, I liked, um, the one you did on your crowdfunding campaign explained also the story back, so I'm definitely gonna recommend people to look at the 12 minutes storyline yeah, with the slide deck slide deck.

Speaker 1: 44:40

Yeah, that's a nice one. Yeah, anything else is still very uh helpful that you can present a slide deck and see my, see me your face and then one person, uh, replying in the comments that the tool didn't work.

Speaker 2: 44:52

You go like well, three, three thousand other people liked it, so anyway yeah, so that that goes uh in depth in our, our business case story. Uh, I would also, if you would like to go a bit more in depth, in another podcast. There's a podcast of the onderernemer. It's called the Pieter Podcast and that's a three-series podcast where we go a bit more in depth and he also recorded. At the moment it was going well, at the moment it didn't go well and at the moment we saw it was in time I heard that one.

Speaker 2: 45:20

It's in Dutch, so for those of you out there go check it out.

Speaker 1: 45:23

It's a really good episode. Cool Thanks, joeri, as always well, thanks for sharing your story openly, candidly, here today and also here with us at Start to Scale. We always close off with a song that you've selected, so would you like to explain which song and why?

Speaker 2: 45:38

Yeah, Thinking very hard about it. Of course there are many songs I like with different stories, but I chose m83 with the song outro, and they have a lot of great songs, but outro is really. It feels like a real emotional song, first without any words, only the music and it's. It's silent for almost half a minute in the song and thereafter it starts again and it gives so much emotion. And I played this song really on the most specific moments in this journey. First, when I couldn't graduate and I was trying, almost quitting Peter Potts, but I made it graduation and we did the successful crowdfunding. That's when I played this song for myself in the night. I also played it when we were growing so fast and I felt like I'm going to be the new Steve Jobs, which was, of course, crazy. And I played it again after we restarted, because after this silent bit it gives so much energy to restart and this silence is also worthwhile in the end. There are many, of course, sayings that you could put into this, but I love the song.

Speaker 1: 46:49

So I would challenge the people listening to the song wait for that silence and wait for what comes after, because then also you recognize the song if you didn't know it before.

Speaker 2: 46:57

Listen to it completely.

Speaker 1: 46:59

There we go. Thank you, yuri, for announcing this song. Thank you for listening. Until next time keep it up.

Speaker 4: 48:47

Thank you, I'm Thank you. I'm the king of my own land, facing tempest and dust. I'll fight until the end. Creatures of my dreams Raise up and dance with me, now and forever. I will care. I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do it. Thank you, I'm sorry, thank you, you.