Speaker 1: 0:01

Up next is a chat with Kiki Lauwers, the CEO of Thorizon, who's on a mission to create carbon-free energy by reusing nuclear waste. You heard that right. In this episode we'll dive into Kiki's leap from corporate to leading a nuclear energy scale-up, the potential of molten salt reactors in changing nuclear perceptions, and the highs and lows of building partnerships, getting funding and the nuclear renaissance. My name is Lars Kramer and this is Start to Scale, the podcast where we explore remarkable scale-up journeys. Kiki leads Thorizon, a revolutionary deep-tech company backed by the EU that's creating thorium-based molten-celled reactors. It was founded by Lucas Paul and Sander de Groot as a spin-off from the National Nuclear Research Institute of the Netherlands, and in 2023, kiki became the CEO. She has a background in aerospace engineering from TU Delft and an MBA from INSEAD. Her journey spans McKinsey, bolcom and now the ambitious goal of launching Thorizon's first reactor. Welcome, kiki, thank you. Most difficult question. If you could power any famous landmark in the world with the Horizons reactor, which one would you choose and why?

Speaker 2: 1:17

oh, I think um. Personally, it would be great to do something in theater or something like that?

Speaker 1: 1:27

Yeah, that would be nice. Nice, a big stage, a Broadway stage or a Lons where would this be?

Speaker 2: 1:33

Yeah, or some of these old nice theaters, and then replace everything with new energy. There we go, there we go.

Speaker 1: 1:41

It's great to have you here. I think we'll both be at Slush um a week after we're recording this. Um, it'll be cold, but it's great to meet here in the warm rotterdam. Have you been to slush before?

Speaker 1: 1:51

no, first time, first time okay, maybe we'll dive into that as uh, in a moment. I'm really curious to hear about, uh, learn about your journey because, um, we've tried to get together before and now finally we sit here. So we're gonna deep dive, dive in your story, your ups and your uh, well, maybe also some of your downs, but we start with four statements that you can answer with true or false. Are you ready?

Speaker 1: 2:11

yes number one. The eu endorsement of the horizons reactor is a turning point for nuclear energy acceptance in europe true, I think this whole alliance really is a turning point okay. When I first told my friends that I would become ceo of a nuclear energy company, they thought I was crazy also definitely. Leading a deep tech startup is not much different from any role in a corporate setting.

Speaker 2: 2:44

Oh false.

Speaker 1: 2:46

And finally, without substantial government support, innovations like Therizons will struggle to reach their full potential. True, okay, and you got quite a bit of government support there. So interesting, you have background at McKinsey and Ballcom and even a bit more. But what motivated you to step into the role of the CEO of the horizon and maybe what was that moment or that experience that kind of got you involved in this space?

Speaker 2: 3:11

Yeah. So I'm an engineer by background and I really wanted to do something in deep tech. That's a bit how the ball got rolling. But my story with the horizon actually started with a text message that I got from a friend, and the text message said something like hey, kiki, there's this deep tech company in Amsterdam really hardcore tech back then nine engineers, they're looking for a new CEO. They're building a nuclear reactor. Isn't this something for you? And I thought no. Who is this crazy company building a nuclear reactor? Isn't this something for you? And I thought no. Who is this crazy company building a nuclear reactor with nine people?

Speaker 2: 3:50

And, by the way, nuclear is so scary. We all grew up with the images of the Simpsons with these green glowing bars and the iodine pills in your home. So for many people the first reflection on nuclear is oh, this is really scary and dangerous. And I have to admit that for me it was the same. And then this friend called me and I said you know, if you want to work in deep tech, at least go and have a conversation. And I'm an engineer by background. But I didn't realize at first that this technology has the potential to bring so much carbon-free energy. And then I started looking into it and I met the founders and I still work today with Sander de Geroot, the CTO and technical founder of the company, and, yeah, I was so amazed by his vision and his idea and, yeah, it's been a pleasure ever since.

Speaker 1: 4:42

So it started with a text message and ended up with a conversation, Maybe for those out there that well, let's not get too technical, but could you maybe explain in layman's terms why molten salt reactors excite you and what is it about this technology that makes you feel you can truly make an impact?

Speaker 2: 5:04

Yeah, if you look today at reservations that people have against nuclear energy, these reservations are in three areas. The first one is waste People don't like nuclear waste. Second is that they think it's important that this technology is safe. And thirdly, cost. And if you look at molten salt reactors, I think they can overcome all these three issues. So this is a technology that can use can use nuclear waste and use it to create energy and by doing so we reduce the volume and the longevity of that waste. So that's really a game changer.

Speaker 2: 5:43

Secondly, these reactors are inherently safe. They have low pressure all the time so you cannot have a pressure escalation and they regulate themselves. If the temperature increases, the fission reaction so the chain reaction internally dampens and because of this inherent safety they can be realized at lower cost. And I think these are the main reasons why molten salt reactors can really be a game changer for nuclear energy, because, yeah, I think they can truly improve also public acceptance for this technology while creating emission-free energy. And if you look at the markets, they deliver industrial heat at a temperature that no other technology can realize. So they're literally, I believe, is no alternative for some, like the chemical, the chemical industry in the netherlands and in europe. They need this type of heat in their core processes and there is really no alternative and that's why I believe it's yeah, it can really be a game changer.

Speaker 1: 6:43

So yeah, cheaper, safer. And then the heat. You say so how does it work? How hot does it get?

Speaker 2: 6:50

So we deliver industrial heat at 550 degrees Celsius and for the industry this is very relevant because many of these companies currently rely on coal and gas plants, and this is really heat that we can deliver in the future in the primary processes.

Speaker 1: 7:08

Ah, okay, making them even more sustainable, kind of reducing the carbon footprint from the also. And then you talk about market, and so what are the type of industries you think you'll cover first? Who would be the first customers of when you create that Thorazin Reactor 1?

Speaker 2: 7:23

of when you create that Thorazin Reactor 1? For the first customers we actually target locations that already have a nuclear designation. So these are sites in Europe, in the Netherlands, france and Belgium, that already have a nuclear label, because on those sites is the most easy to get your license. The customers then are nuclear operators. So you have to think of, for example, edf in France, apz in the Netherlands, engie in Belgium, and we give them a new type of facility and we help them to reduce their nuclear waste reserves, because they have quite a lot of reserves on their balance sheet to process this nuclear waste in the future okay, nice, uh, well, that's see, I told you we're going to get really fast into how this all works, um, but you have customers that will be using it and it seems like there's a really good use case, uh, for your reactor.

Speaker 1: 8:18

and then, um, well, actually, what? What got me excited about your story again is, uh, the articles that have been going around about the EU endorsement that you recently received. Maybe let's talk a little bit about that, maybe explain how does this EU support work on the one side and then, secondly, how does that help you get this mission off the ground?

Speaker 2: 8:41

So in Europe they started the industrial alliance for small modular reactors and it's really a first way to increase support of all the European nations for nuclear energy and also a step towards financial support for these types of technologies. So the alliance came together, I think for the first time in March this year, and then they wrote a call for projects in Europe. The deadline for that call for projects was in June, so before summer we submitted our application. In total I think 22 reactor developers submitted a proposal and nine projects have been selected, and we are one of those nine. But what's even more interesting is that in those nine there are only three companies with truly new technologies. So six use conventional nuclear technology and three ones use new technology. So I think truly a great compliment that we have been selected and there are quite established companies amongst those as well.

Speaker 2: 9:51

So we have, for example, newart from the French EDF, but also the Rolls-Royce SMR has been selected. So for Torizon a major opportunity to be part of that group.

Speaker 1: 10:02

Yeah, then you are the new startup in between all those established players and established giants. Is it hard to keep yourself standing between such big well, are you competing? In a way you're competing right Because you're also going to get follow-on funding, or how does that work?

Speaker 2: 10:19

Sorry, two questions, yeah no, no, it's a good question, so I don't know whether we in the end are competing. So this subset of nine um has now been selected to receive uh support. We are the only molten salt reactor developer in that set.

Speaker 2: 10:34

So in that sense it's it's quite cool that they take this technology in their basket.

Speaker 2: 10:39

Yeah, and I think if you look, as I mentioned, to some of the benefits, we're really the only one that can deliver those benefits.

Speaker 2: 10:46

And then, indeed, how do you position yourselves amongst these bigger companies? We were there presenting our project, or I was presenting the project, and then, I think, people quite like it because it brings a fresh perspective. On the one hand, I do think these people also think, ok, this is a bit crazy, the small company from the Netherlands, andance, that is pushing this forward. But on the other hand, they like the vision and they see an opportunity to join, because this is something that you cannot do by yourself. And if you, if you look at at our story and the way that we are building the company, we rely heavily on partnerships with others, because otherwise this will never work, and I think that's also an opportunity for the people that are joining that alliance. In total, I think more than 300 companies are involved in that alliance and they see this also as an opportunity to join in our supply chain and help us or benefit from this project in the way that they can.

Speaker 1: 11:41

So then everybody's trying to work together, and those are heavyweight partnerships, I guess, with big uh partners around. So what is your trick or how do you approach um collaboration with these partners? What, what do you do to keep these partnerships going and how to make them thrive?

Speaker 2: 11:59

yes, some of these partnerships were already ongoing, so I think an important one is, for example, orano, the large fuel developer in France that can also do fuel recycling. They selected, really, thorizon as one of the companies to work with, but then we continue to build that relationships. We have regular calls with them, we share information with them. They became our consortium partner in the France 2030 subsidy program, but also the other ones. I think it starts by asking when I joined the company, we made a list of 30 influencers that we wanted to connect to, and these are influencers from the Netherlands, from France, from European industry and governments, and in the beginning I thought people need to make connections for me, so I'm going to ask for people to introduce me. But then at some point, the pipeline got a bit clogged and then I thought, ok, I'm just going to reach out directly, and I reach out through LinkedIn, go to people, email people directly, and I have to admit that most of the time, that works.

Speaker 2: 13:09

So I think the only thing you can do is ask, and then it will happen.

Speaker 1: 13:14

Yeah, how do you start an email like that? Hi?

Speaker 2: 13:16

I'm Kiki.

Speaker 1: 13:17

When I get into molten salt reactors. How do you open a message like that?

Speaker 2: 13:22

Yeah, so most of the time I I say I'm leading this scale up from the netherlands and france. We are developing a nuclear reactor that uses waste as a source of energy and I would like to get your feedback, or I would like to discuss something with you also. Yeah, I think that's the best way to reach out is to ask for help and also give people the opportunity that they can add some value.

Speaker 1: 13:49

Yeah, and you have a very interesting topic so I think it tickles people's interest. Yeah, and actually I thought you were going in that direction of those 30 influencers, because maybe not in that space, but I think in the general space, nuclear energy has its skeptics, right, and I think, like you referred to the Simpsons, that is the first impression people have. How are you navigating the public perception of what you're doing and perhaps any regulatory hurdles that might come across?

Speaker 2: 14:23

What we always try to do is, in a way, show the people behind the technology, and this is maybe a small thing, but I think this is a sector that perhaps has been ashamed for quite a long time about what they were doing, because they know it was facing resistance. And we really show the people behind the technology, show what the benefits are, and I think that can really help and I don't see it as an either or an or but. If people start building new facilities, I think this technology can truly help to improve the acceptance of nuclear energy. And it's showing the people, telling the stories, and yeah, I hope then, step by step, that things will change.

Speaker 2: 15:08

Um, I do think as engineers we treat it most of the time very rationally that we come with the arguments, stating the arguments. I somehow believe it also helps to to show the people, perhaps show a more diverse group of people believing in this type of technology. So that's a little bit more on the emotional side. And then I think the other thing is if you see what is happening beyond Europe in the US, they're going all in on this type of technology. In Asia, they're going all in on this type of technology so then it also becomes okay if we want to compete on the European side, if we want to keep the industry in Europe. I really think that this can make a difference and that maybe some of the people that were against this technology for quite a while gradually will see that they do need it.

Speaker 1: 15:57

Yeah, and then you have the good arguments, although they are the rational arguments of safety and cost. Yeah, at least it take away some of those worries. But I think the the lobby and the anti-lobby has been there for a long time. Right, so that uh, changing the public opinion might take some.

Speaker 2: 16:11

Uh, take some time and I do think that for the past one and a half years, this has already improved a lot.

Speaker 1: 16:17

Yeah yeah, yeah, you see that with. I mean we want to be independent. Uh, things are changing uh quite a bit, and I like the angle of using, reused or reusing some of the materials. I mean, would you call it a circular reactor then, or is that a bit too far?

Speaker 2: 16:31

yeah, we say it's the first step. It's the first steps towards circularity nice.

Speaker 1: 16:37

Um, yeah, we have some circular economy. Um, people listening to the podcast, so I don't think we've received any questions, but maybe they'll come later and I'll put them in the next one. Maybe talk about funding, because what you're doing is not building a ballcom quick MVP online. You're building a reactor, so that's costly. You secure 12.5 million in 2022, 10 million in 2024. How have these funds accelerated your projects? How have you used them or how are you using them.

Speaker 2: 17:14

So currently we have I think the first one is at this moment in time it's people. So we have a team of 40 people right now, 20 in amsterdam, 20 in lyon and they're working on advancing this technology. At this moment we have the concept design for the reactor ready and that concept design has been, let's say it, reviewed or labeled far enough by by the nuclear regulators.

Speaker 2: 17:42

So, we started the regulatory approval in the first phases as well, and the French and the Dutch regulator have also said okay, now the time is right to have a first look at your design. So we're starting the preparatory review process. On top of that, we have two operational loops. So these are small prototypes that we have in a lab in the Netherlands where we do experiments on the material, and a non-nuclear salt and a transparent model of the cartridge where we simulate a flow with water.

Speaker 1: 18:17

Maybe explain how this sorry so before we go into that, maybe explain how that with a cartridge works, because I don't think people have an idea. No, Try to visualize it In our core.

Speaker 2: 18:26

The salt is contained in cartridges and these cartridges together form a critical configuration, and every cartridge, yeah, it's basically a cylinder with molten salt in it, with a dedicated pump and a dedicated heat exchanger, and this salt then circulates in this cartridge. Okay, and that's really also the behavior that we simulate in these prototypes.

Speaker 1: 18:50

And then? So how does that work in the future? You can bring those cartridges in and out, right?

Speaker 3: 18:54

Correct.

Speaker 1: 18:54

Okay, trying to visualize this in my Sorry you were going.

Speaker 2: 18:57

So you're building some of those prototypes first small versions, yeah, so that is, the use of funds, let's say, for the means that we received up to now, and in addition, we are doing some experiments. So we have the first irradiation experiments in the Netherlands, in the reactor in Petten, and also at DIFFER in Eindhoven, where we do an experiment to assess the interaction between irradiation and corrosion. So those are some of the things that we are doing at this moment with the funds. However, if you look at the next phases, you want to start building the larger prototype.

Speaker 2: 19:36

So then we're really looking at a full-scale prototype of such a cartridge yeah where you want to use the materials that we intend to use, the heat exchanger that we intend to use, the pump that we intend to use. So that's quite asset-heavy and that's a very important deliverable for the next round and then, in parallel, finalize the detail design. So there's still quite a lot of design work, not only on this cartridge but on the full facility that we want to do ourselves, and then also, of course, with subcontractors and partners, and then building and that's the hard part about deep tech, right?

Speaker 1: 20:09

so then you the. The gap towards the next round is probably going to be big. So what's the range of of money you would need for such a like pilot plan? Well, is it a plant? It's a real plant, right?

Speaker 2: 20:22

It's really the prototype of the core. It's not yet the first of a kind, Because for the first of a kind full reactor then you're looking at hundreds of millions. For this next phase, we're targeting above 50 million in fundraising.

Speaker 1: 20:38

Okay, work to be done in the next phases, but I think you've onboarded some really good investors already in your current rounds. Exciting stuff, exciting stuff. Are you hiring?

Speaker 2: 20:52

Yes, yes.

Speaker 1: 20:53

What kind of people are you looking for?

Speaker 2: 20:55

Mostly engineers.

Speaker 1: 20:57

What kind?

Speaker 3: 20:57

of engineers.

Speaker 2: 20:58

Mechanical engineers, chemistry chemistry engineers, nuclear physics also people that want to work with us in the labs on the prototypes. Sales director.

Speaker 1: 21:10

Yeah, okay, so many roles, okay. So we'll put in the link to the job site in the show notes and then, as the, as you're growing the company, the team is also growing right, so, so, right. So how are you managing the growth of the company and maybe what are some of the tactics that you use as a leader?

Speaker 2: 21:31

For me, it's important to be as transparent as possible. So I think it's an important value that we have in the company we tell it like it is right and that we want engineers to speak up if something is wrong, because we want to have ultimate safety in this design. But it also means that we are open about the things that are going on. So on the fundraising with the team, we are quite transparent and sometimes that creates a little bit of anxiety because, also from the management team, we have to deliver what we promise. But I do think that's a very important value to inform everyone about what is going on across the company. So that is something that we definitely continue to do and I think in scaling it helps, because people need to know, they need to have a certain level of information, I think, in order to succeed and to understand why are we doing this?

Speaker 2: 22:27

what are the priorities? What is important? So transparency and communication, I think is very important, and then, of course, with a growing company, at some moment you need a middle management team that really coaches also the junior engineers that we need as well, and that middle management layer we started actually hiring in in the middle of of this year and and so, in that sense, in the organization we are ready to absorb this growth?

Speaker 1: 22:56

yeah, and then you can move forward to the point of what you said on radical transparency. Do you share everything in your pnl or do you make it easier to to absorb, because not everybody might be able to understand all the things that you're working on on a daily basis and I'm asking this because actually we host founders dinners and this is one of the topics that came up at the table. How much do you share with whom and are you not oversharing that people get completely lost? How do you manage that?

Speaker 2: 23:22

No, so we do prioritize. So it's things like okay, every quarter we set goals and there are goals for the engineers, there are goals for the prototyping team, but there are also goals for the management team. So those goals we share and we share the progress against those goals as well. So, we need everyone on board. And then on the fundraising, of course we do not share all the details, but we do share the ambition level, the confidence level, the number of investors that are doing due diligence. So, on that, we are actually quite transparent.

Speaker 1: 23:56

Nice, and then you could probably use some of that McKinsey styles you have in you right. So how did? And we often, obviously. Well, mckinsey is in many boardrooms and has been making many decisions for many companies or helping companies to move forward. What do you think are the skills that you took from your time at McKinsey that are really valuable now in leading a scale-up like this?

Speaker 2: 24:19

I think one is communication, so sharing the clear messages setting the priorities in leading a scale-up like this, I think one is communication, so sharing the clear messages, setting the priorities and sharing those priorities.

Speaker 2: 24:32

But, also externally, the way you summarize information and share it in a way that is comprehensive and leads to action. And then I also think, yeah, it's, of course, a very data-driven, fact-based approach. So to continue to look into the facts and and dive deep when it's needed, those are some of the things that I learned from mackenzie and I still use on a, on a, on a day-to-day basis. Yeah, um, then I think, on the, on the executional side there, the role at boldcom gave me quite a lot of more means to make a difference, because I I still know, when I joined boldcom, the first thing I did was I made a powerpoint with the things that had to be done. Right, because that was what I I did for during the six years before.

Speaker 1: 25:21

But then without the McKinsey logo. Exactly.

Speaker 2: 25:24

And then I was surprised and I thought, okay, I now have this PowerPoint, but now it only starts right. How am I going to do this? And then even making the time for the list of priorities in that PowerPoint in a day-to-day operational job is quite challenging, and that was an eye-opener.

Speaker 1: 25:41

And then it's, it's creating that focus, which is it will, I think, always remain a challenge, but I do know the importance of that and yeah to to focus on that interesting and that makes, I think, the combination of those two things, uh yeah, a great asset for you know, running a company like this, having the data backed storytelling part of your mckin, this, having the data-backed storytelling part of your McKinsey time, with the hands-on getting things done from Volvocom yeah, it's a very useful combination, anyway. So, people out there listening go check out some of those McKinsey reports because, it's true, it's even simple, like the headline. What does the headline say and what does the data on it say? Anyway, look up some of those PowerPoint presentations. Great, great, great. We've all been talking about the happy flow of the company and things that are going well and growing. What is the hardest part about this journey for you?

Speaker 2: 26:38

I think most of the days are quite exciting because you see the progress towards the goals and the small things that we can every day do to make a difference. But there are, of course, days that either an investor pulls back in the process or there's an experiment that does not succeed, and it's, in some of these days, okay, the next day you get a new chance. And how do you recover from some of these setbacks? I think, yeah, maybe it's a little bit of a vague example, but there are, of course, times that I think, oh my God, what did I start? And this will never happen, right?

Speaker 2: 27:21

Sometimes you have one of those days and then I think we then have the team and we have an open discussion about it and, yeah, but I think every few weeks there is someone in the management team that has this right, and if it were easy, someone else would have done it.

Speaker 2: 27:40

The fact that it is tough also makes it nice. But, yeah, there are days where you think, oh my God, why did I join this company? And it will never work. So how do you pick yourself up from that, especially when you get a bit of negative feedback externally from either investors or maybe people from the government, that that that spent hours explaining to you why they do not believe in nuclear energy, and then the next day you start again. And I think what gives energy is people, that that work with you, that that you increasingly feel that people have your back. And even now, now, today, are we 100% sure that this funding round will succeed? Of course not, but if I think about the momentum that we have right now and the support that we have from people and how that support has grown in the past one and a half years, I somehow feel that this is going to work.

Speaker 1: 28:36

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 28:37

And that's a nice feeling yeah.

Speaker 1: 28:39

Perfect, and then you take a day from that. Nice, we'll go to a very quick break and then we'll be back.

Speaker 3: 28:46

Thank you, You're listening to the podcast of Up Rotterdam. We help startups scale and grow their business by offering access to talent, access to international markets and access to capital. Curious how we can make the network work for you? Go to uprotterdamcom. This podcast was made possible by the City of Rotterdam.

Speaker 1: 29:07

And we're back, kiki. We've been talking about so many things your career switch, molten salt, the advantages of your technology for the energy transition, building the team. During the break we talked a bit about that McKinsey thing. Maybe you want to explain so for people that are thinking of creating good PowerPoint slides or perhaps even investor pitch introductions. Can you explain what is the pyramid principle and how does it work?

Speaker 2: 29:34

Yeah, so it's a communication methodology that says that you give the main conclusion first and then you add the underlying arguments. And imagine that there are three underlying arguments and then the slides that follow also explain the underlying arguments for those three arguments. So it's really evidence-based. But the main point is message first.

Speaker 1: 29:57

Message first and then the data Message first and then the data message. First and then the proof, cool, go check it out. So if you want to be you know, mckinsey top quality, uh a creator of stories, go check out. The pyramid principle will be in the show notes. Um, we also talked about the hardship that you sometimes find, and then you know, getting yourself back together to work on your mission again the next day. How do you recharge your own energy after a long day working?

Speaker 2: 30:25

I dance, so that's one of my hobbies. Yeah, so I dance once a week modern and ballet and for me it really gives a lot of energy back because you completely use another part of your brain and I tried running, but when I run you're still thinking about work and all this stuff. And during the dancing there's no way you can think about work.

Speaker 2: 30:52

So it's really doing something else. So that helps a lot. And then I think being at home with the family it really pulls you out of the day to day work as well, so that balance is nice yes, your children are relatively similar to my age children, so you have to be present at home there's no other way very nice.

Speaker 1: 31:14

Okay. The next topic is that we go into listeners questions, which we always collect of people around us. So if you're listening to this podcast, look at the LinkedIn channel and see who's our next guest and you can send them in. Let's dive in. The first one is the gentleman who actually introduced us to each other, andrew Buskens from Delft. His question is the following and I think there's a Delft part in this question how does Thorizon view the role of Dutch knowledge institutions and innovative clusters in the development of Thorizon One? And then, what is the current collaboration with partners in Delft, such as the TU, delft Reactor Institute, tno or other potential collaborations to accelerate research or develop new technologies, and what role can the municipality play in this Long question?

Speaker 2: 32:03

Actually, I think he put three questions in one and I thought the question was going to be about Delft, indeed, but no, maybe to share a bit. So I mentioned already some of the institutes with whom we work. So it's NRG, the Dutch nuclear research Institute, in better, yeah, and differ in and over, where we have active experiments and we work, of course, with it. You delved as well. So some of the of the research is super interesting and uh, we have many uh alumni that uh that graduate from the, from the reactor institute and uh and that uh that join us, but always the opportunity to do more and with tno, actually the same door. So there are some discussions at this moment in time to see how we can uh come work together uh in the future. Um, and it's always, it's always a balance because, on the one hand, this is very interesting knowledge and uh, and sometimes also infrastructure which is truly unique, with with the research reactors, for example. On the other hand, sometimes the, the pace of development is not the same pace that a startup has.

Speaker 2: 33:19

So, these are some of the things that we need to combine, and I'm not sure whether there's really something that the municipality of Delft can do. I think the only thing is to continue supporting the university, and when the question of Delft started, I thought it would be okay. What is the thing that you learned in Delft that really helps you now? And for me, the coolest thing about Delft really is that you learn there that everything is possible, everything can be built, and you have that in the student projects in the mindset of everyone, and that is really something that I still carry on. That is such a nice ground rule.

Speaker 1: 34:03

Yeah, so maybe, Andrew.

Speaker 1: 34:05

there you have the answer to your question what can the municipality do Well, make sure that there's more people graduating in Delft and learning that anything can be done. By the way, did you know that South Holland, where Delft is also based, is the number one deep tech province in the Netherlands? 29% of all deep tech startups and scalers in the Netherlands are in South Holland, and that is due to Delft. So first it's South Holland, then it's North Holland, then I think it's North Brabant, but by a big gap. So it's all those bright minds coming out of Delft. Quite a few aerospace engineering founders, though. I think nima salami from oasis now, who we not sure if we had them on the podcast already, um, and had another one, um, uh, jos lazette from block rise. Uh, they're all aerospace engineering, so some somehow, somehow these people end up in really good places.

Speaker 1: 34:57

thank you, and for this question. I think we've mentioned Delft and I do it again now a few times in this podcast. I hope that helps. Next question is from Dan Giesen. Dan is from LessonUp. His question is Kiki, you've worked within large structured companies like Boldcom and McKinsey. You just talked about that. How does entrepreneurship in a startup within the nuclear energy sector differ from those more established environments, and what lessons have you brought with you? I think you touched a little bit on the lessons that you brought, so I'd be curious to understand. You know, how does this really differ from the sectors that you've worked in?

Speaker 2: 35:33

I think, in general, the pace of innovation or of change in general is just so much quicker.

Speaker 2: 35:40

And even comparing to boldcom, which I think is, or when, when I worked there was was also a scale-up company with quite a high pace and agile way of working, or mckenzie, when you have fast deadlines and everything needs to happen in, let's say, a couple' time, the change that you can realize with a small team in a startup scale-up setting, I think that is really yeah, it's uncomparable to anything else. So, for example, our COO she joined on January 1st and we often laugh because it feels like five years ago and that is something that is so rewarding. And I think if you like to be hands-on and I quite like this then this is such a nice opportunity to work and you can decide on so many things or you can add value in so many ways, whilst in a larger corporate, I think, even in senior management positions, your role is scoped and you can do some change, but still it's related to your role and the scope and the priorities, and in these companies there's almost no boundaries, and that's something that I really like.

Speaker 1: 36:59

Yeah, really, you have a blank slate and you can start creating and exploring and innovating, which might be hard in a corporate setting. And I mean corporates are setting up, you know, exploration programs and innovation programs, but even within that there's boundaries, right, Absolutely Okay. Yeah, that's a great insight and I highly recommend anybody to go work for a scale-up On hackyourcareercom. We have, I think, over 750 scale-up jobs. So if you feel like this is you go check it out. Go check out, obviously, what Verizon is doing and make your mark in a scale-up. I think that's the challenge we put to the listeners. Thank you, Dan, for answering this, this question. Dan is actually in education a little bit, uh, helping people where to go, so I know dan really well, you know really nice.

Speaker 2: 37:46

See, he says hi there you go um next question.

Speaker 1: 37:52

Oh, this is nice. This is a question from rinke zonneveld, who we both know. R Rinke, ceo of InvestNL. He's also a friend of Rotterdam. He's in our board of recommendation. He starts with Kiki. You're amazing. His question is. My question would be as a woman and a Flemish Flemish.

Speaker 3: 38:11

Flemish, you're on fire. Flemish.

Speaker 1: 38:14

Flemish, yeah, a Flemish person leading a high-tech scale-up like Thorizon. Do you think that differs from what it might be like for someone like me as a Dutch man, and how do you potentially use that as an advantage?

Speaker 2: 38:31

Oh, it's an interesting question. So on the one hand it shouldn't matter, right, Correct. And then it's interesting because I think if you would look at my resume and you would make it Jan Lauwers, it would be an exceptional resume. But because I'm a woman, sometimes it does feel a little bit different and you see it, sometimes it's a small thing. So I once had an interview with a journalist together with another CEO an interview with a journalist together with another CEO, and he referred to the other CEO as the engineer who graduated from Delft and to me he referred as the lady from Belgium.

Speaker 2: 39:09

But I'm also an engineer who graduated from Delft.

Speaker 2: 39:11

So I actually emailed him and I said hey, you know can you change this, because I'm also an engineer from Delft, so there's a big perception issue which I think it would be nice if we can gradually overcome it. But if I look at it from the positive side, what is really nice is that I think I stand out because I'm different than the other ones and people generally remember I think, honestly, I get the opportunity to speak at events, maybe a little bit more because they're looking for a female speaker or a female representative in the panel, and that, I think, is an asset and is something that I can make use of, which is for us, a great opportunity for Torizon.

Speaker 2: 40:00

On the other hand, I'm sometimes a little bit afraid that if I reach out to investors or to certain contacts, that they will disqualify the company because I'm a female CEO with perhaps another profile than some of the men, another profile than some of the men. But I think, with the support of people like Rinke from InvestNL, or the other shareholders or the partners that we have, it's a bias that we can overcome. But I do think that the bias is there yeah.

Speaker 1: 40:39

So how do you then and we also often talk about the old boys network, right, so it's, and I think particularly in your industry there is a lot of old boys and a lot of network Can you somehow use those old boys then? Sorry, I'm not calling you an old boy, actually.

Speaker 3: 40:54

I just did.

Speaker 1: 40:56

Can you somehow use these contacts then to your advantage, kind of combining the fact that you have the advantage of being a woman, you know, getting time on stage, but then maybe using those?

Speaker 2: 41:10

Sometimes I think it's also daring to ask for help because indeed you do not feel part of that boys' network. But I think asking for help, indeed of the people, because indeed you do not feel part of that voice network, but I think asking for help indeed of the people that support you, that is possible.

Speaker 2: 41:25

And I think they are very willing to help. So it's something that you can do more of and I hope sort of in the generation of startups, caleb CEOs that I'm part of, I hope that in that set there is a place for me and to just be yourself in that setting.

Speaker 1: 41:51

Makes sense. Thank you for this question and keep sharing the word of the horizon. Let's do coffee soon again. Um, oh, there's a really quick question. I'm gonna push it. Push it in, because we're running out of time. Alice asks and this is a good question uh, thinking about public perception around nuclear energy, is there any personal myth you wish you could bust right now?

Speaker 2: 42:19

I do think the myth about safety is an important one, because if you truly look at the facts, this is one of the most safest sources of energy out there and I think, because of the incidents that have happened, the marketing around nuclear is really bad.

Speaker 2: 42:42

But if you truly look at the facts and you compare this against other sources of energy coal, gas, even renewables the statistics on safety are actually quite good. And if you look at the regulations that are out there, every facility that is being built has to comply to the most stringent regulations. So I truly, truly believe this is safe and, of course, our marketing story is that we are inherently safe, which I think in the end will have an effect on cost. But the myth that I would like to truly burst is that this is, in a way, an unsafe technology.

Speaker 1: 43:16

Okay, good, good to put that on the record. Very good, we're getting to the end. Thank you so much for sharing your journey. I think you're building one of the most remarkable companies in the Netherlands and France together combined, and it's really nice to listen to your story, how you transitioned into this leadership position and finding a way to make it happen every day. So thank you for sharing your story with us here today. Thank you, everything we talked about will be in the show notes so people can go check that out. But, as always, we close off with a song that you have selected. So would you like to introduce the song and why you chose it?

Speaker 2: 43:52

yes, um, and I had to think a bit about this because I thought, okay, at some point the song became so important that I thought, okay, which one do I need to choose? Right. But I chose a song that for me, it's really my pick-me-up song. So every time I have a meeting for which I'm a little bit anxious, this is the song I listen to in my earphones before I go into the meeting, in my earphones before I go into the meeting. It's really a song that has made me my gift to the listeners because it's such an empowering song for me. So if you're in the car, I would say, turn the volume a bit louder. If you're in the train or on the way, you can even dance a little bit along. So the song is the One and Only it's from a Belgian DJ. So I took the dance remix and that's the story behind it.

Speaker 1: 44:42

Perfect. Thank you for choosing that. Thank you for listening. Until next time, keep it up.

Speaker 2: 44:47

Thank you.

Speaker 3: 44:49

I am the one and only Nobody, I'd rather be. Thank you. You can't take that away from me. I am the one and only Nobody got around me. I am the one and only you can't take that away from me. You can't take that away from me, thank you. Bye. I am the one and only Nobody around me. I am the one and only you can't take that away from me. I am the one and only Nobody around me. I am the one. I know that it is. You can't take that away from me.