Speaker 1: 0:00

Up next, a conversation with Marjolein van Tilburg, founder and CEO of ChatLicense, the award-winning app that empowers kids to navigate the online world safely.

Speaker 1: 0:11

Now, whether you are a parent or not, I'm sure you'll enjoy this episode, because we'll explore why we must educate kids on the use of smartphones, how to create your own luck through serendipity, and the dynamics of co-founders and team evolution. I'm Lars Kramer and you're listening to Start to Scale, the podcast where we explore the scale-up journeys of remarkable founders, and Marjolein is one of those remarkable founders. She is a driving force for digital well-being and responsible tech. In 2022, she left a successful career as a lawyer, mediator and privacy expert to launch JetLicense. They're helping families to navigate responsible use of smartphones, and what started as a simple idea quickly became a fast-growing company, blending digital literacy with real-world impact. From pitching a wireframe at CES to winning startup competitions in Rotterdam and Silicon Valley, chat license has built some serious momentum and today, with the support of major telco operators and local governments, parents and kids across the country use chat license to build healthier digital habits. Welcome, marjolein.

Speaker 2: 1:20

Thank you, lars, what a wonderful summary.

Speaker 1: 1:23

There we go. I tried my best. But before we begin, how much time did you spend on your smartphone today? Oh maybe 30 minutes, 30 minutes. Okay, is it average I?

Speaker 2: 1:35

don't think it's that much. It's maybe 10 minutes morning WhatsAppping with my co-founder and then, I guess, a podcast okay while walking the dog, oh really this morning you had a podcast already.

Speaker 1: 1:48

Yeah, which one did you listen to?

Speaker 2: 1:49

this one this one.

Speaker 1: 1:51

Ah, you were prepared well, um, we've had the pleasure of meeting several times, um, actually at the festival, but also in our prep call. You told me a bit about the you know, bumpy ride you might have as a founder, so I can't wait, wait to dive into your story. But, as always, we'll start with four statements that you can answer with true or false.

Speaker 1: 2:11

You're ready hit me you wouldn't let your kid swim without a diploma, so you should also not give them a smartphone without one true serendipity is just another word for luck false if you have a great idea and a strong team, securing investment is just a matter of time true and the final one work-life balance is a myth when you're building a startup I want to say say false, but it was true for me. Yeah, Okay, so you do have a good. Well, you woke the dog in the morning.

Speaker 2: 2:50

you said yeah, but that's 2025, man. I'm talking about 2022, up to 2024. And no, I actually really realized, also by the end of last year, that what is most important is really your family. So, um, you should really watch that work-life balance.

Speaker 1: 3:11

So that's what I'm trying to do much better this year okay, well, that's a good new year's uh resolution, while talking about family. Uh, maybe for those that don't know jet license, let's uncover a bit what it is that you're doing, because, um, my children are 12 and 13 years old, and I think they were practically born with a screen in their hands, and you've created an app to help parents and kids create a better and safer online experience. Maybe take us back to your origin story how did your entrepreneurial journey start and what is the vision behind chat license?

Speaker 2: 3:44

um, I guess the journey started in 2021 when I was I was still a lawyer, a general counsel, as a matter of fact, in a very nice scale up, maybe already arrived company, but it had a. It had a very entrepreneurial vibe, okay, and then, being the lawyer in such a company, you're always the one who's always holding everybody back, I guess, and being the wise one. And I actually didn't really like that role because I wanted to also think big. But well, if you're a lawyer, what can you do, right?

Speaker 1: 4:19

You can say no a lot yeah.

Speaker 2: 4:22

So that was number one and number two. You know, when you're in your 40s you have this maybe midlife kind of thing. So I, uh, I had this awakening of like, okay, the second half of my life is getting started, so what are we, what are we going to do? That really, uh, is going to make a difference. Is my legacy really going to be oh, but the privacy conditions of company so-and-so were amazing or is it going to be something else? I really had a drive to do something, but it was difficult to know what. But then this just happened in my personal life that my oldest daughter got her phone and I could see and it wasn't even social media, it was really just about whatsapp and just using the device that I was also thinking how naive of me that I, that I thought I would give her a phone yeah but it's not a phone, it's really a computer and like a tracking device and they they don't use it to actually call you, they only use it to message and watch clips and stuff.

Speaker 2: 5:29

And then I saw the dynamics in the group chat of my daughter and I could just tell, like these 10-year-olds, they don't know what they're doing, they are still actually learning to communicate. And then you give them this like hand grenade type of device and then you're like, okay, I'm sure you'll work it out or I'll tell you a little bit about it and then I'm sure you'll be fine. And it's just not the case. And you could see real negative effects. And I could also see that my daughter's phone was downstairs but when she would take it in the morning there would be like 100 missed messages from other 10-year-olds who were all put in the group app between 10 pm and 2 am.

Speaker 2: 6:15

So I was like who's watching these kids? What's going on? So I really figured this is it and I think I know a thing or two about this and I think this is universal. I I think I know a thing or two about this and I think this is universal. Um, this is an international problem and it's the solution is super easy. I mean, it's the swimming diploma. So, uh, you just need to give somebody a program before they start using it.

Speaker 1: 6:38

So, uh, yeah, that that was an idea that sort of then stuck in my head okay, okay, and you were still a lawyer and I think many parents out there listening, I think, will recognize it.

Speaker 1: 6:49

And maybe the age difference a bit, some even I think I see kids, even younger, having a phone, which yeah I mean, it's your personal decision, I would not go for that, and some a bit later, but I really recognize that every morning, um, but it's so anyway. It started in your um, when you're still kind of in your, let's say, safe space of being a lawyer uh, getting this idea out and then, but then, um, how did that vision, um, then become a tangible product?

Speaker 1: 7:19

because then you have an idea. Can you maybe talk us through kind of the defining moments that you had after coming up with that idea and getting a product in the market?

Speaker 2: 7:29

Yeah, I guess it's a personal journey and it depends on how your head works, I suppose. But my head apparently works in the night, because then I came up with oh, chat diploma and also chat license, but first it was chat diploma. And then I remember this was like at 2 am and I ran to my computer and I checked if the com was still available and then I claimed that Chatdiplomacom.

Speaker 2: 7:54

Chatdiplomacom. And then I went to sleep and then an hour later I was like no, no, no, in English they say license. So I went back to my room. Jet license was also available, yeah, so. So then I was like, okay, I've got this, this is already working out because I've got the dot com, um, yeah, and then, but then really a couple of months, uh went, went by and uh, maybe even a year actually went by, um, and in that process you go through a lot, and so in that process I did end my job and then I was like, yeah, I'm free to do this now. Man, how am I going to do it?

Speaker 1: 8:34

But you ended a job without any revenue, any funding, any sort of like bootstrapping, or how did you start?

Speaker 2: 8:40

Oh well, I hadn't started yet. I guess I had started like telling everybody right and that was a funny thing. It was like manifesting, uh, this thing where I would say yeah, so this is what we're building and people would would say oh, that's amazing the fact that nothing was happening yet.

Speaker 2: 9:00

So, um, when I was um ready to start, I had never made a pitch deck, so I was really actually stuck behind my computer and I didn't really know what to do. And then someone else came by and said oh, I've got this really cool job legal director, la la la. So actually I had almost already gotten myself into another job and then, mysteriously, I got a phone call from TIOS at a university in the south of the Netherlands, and they said well, we're doing this startup pitch competition and you enrolled Because I said I wanted to see how people do this, because I was stuck, so I was like I need to watch other people and she said yeah, but so Spot became available.

Speaker 2: 9:46

So do you want it? It's like, but it's next week, so it's short notice, but do you want to take it? I said yeah, I'll do it, because I was like this is you know?

Speaker 1: 9:56

Yeah it's the best way to learn how to create a pitch deck, but also it's crazy, right that?

Speaker 2: 10:01

this happens right now. So this is call it serendipity or call it whoever has spoken to me. But the good thing is that it came with an entire pitch deck preparation program. So I got this crash course in writing, a pitch deck, and because by now it was like more than 10 months that I had this idea in mind, so I could just sort of plot it in.

Speaker 1: 10:28

Right, so there was. Now you had the template. Exactly, I just needed the template and just then threw everything in.

Speaker 2: 10:36

So it was a week that I sort of was in my study and preparing in front of the mirror and all those things, um, yeah. And then I won that pitch, so I won that competition. Uh. So the next day, uh, I I called up the those guys from the job and I said, sorry, I I can't come because I'm going to be the ceo of chad leiser. It sounded a bit like preposterous at the time, um, and it was, but um, but you have to be a little bit crazy, right?

Speaker 1: 11:09

yeah, no, yeah, and that's a great starting story. So, sitting behind your laptop figuring out what to do and then getting. We'll get to that serendipity part in a moment. Um, because is it really serendipity? I think that's the question. Uh, you've been sharing your story with many people, um, but you've had many pitch competitions over time, and what's your view on pitch competitions today? Should you join them? What was your experience there and which ones have you participated in?

Speaker 2: 11:35

Well many. I mean, it's less than 10, definitely. But I think it's generally a really good thing. It's an extremely good preparation and it's also very scary when you have to do it for the first time. But yeah, starting a company is scary, so you better. If this is already too hard, then don't go there. I would say. So it's a really good start and the thing is you have to let go that you want to win this, because you're already really winning by standing on the stage and having that audience and you never know what the jury or whatever what they're looking for. So it could be a complete mismatch with whatever you're offering, but still, your story should stand. So it's really about uh, how confident am I and how happy am I to to share this story? Does it make sense to me?

Speaker 2: 12:33

yeah and then you'll see if you get the benefit of a prize.

Speaker 1: 12:36

But but that should be your, your mindset yes, so the secondary goal is the prize, but first it's getting your story out there, making sure that people hear it for like first time, like starting uh, founders definitely I mean later on.

Speaker 2: 12:51

Uh, then I think it's eyes on the prize, but then your story is already sort of grown and you're you know what. You have to be very careful about what. Where do you spend your time and and what, why are you there? So still, it could be like, okay, okay, I just want this audience, and then the prize is secondary, but you have to be very mindful of why am I here.

Speaker 1: 13:13

Yeah, and prepare for the unpreparable things. I think at Upstream you hit a brainstorm right.

Speaker 2: 13:20

Yeah, but Upstream was already a bit more, let's say, purposeful. I suppose I want to highlight the first two startup pitch things that I did and they were really small scale. So one was in the Microlab building where they were, so it was a co-working office space.

Speaker 1: 13:42

We're recording this as we speak in Microlab Exactly. I'm still here.

Speaker 2: 13:45

So shout out to MicroLab, but they started here and they said so. The winner gets 25,000 euros worth of rent.

Speaker 1: 13:56

Space yeah.

Speaker 2: 13:57

So I was like, oh my God, that's exactly what I need. Because, I have no budget and I need a space to work in right. So I did that pitch and it actually went quite well. But I didn't win that, so I was a bit annoyed, but well.

Speaker 1: 14:14

Still, you're here Still here.

Speaker 2: 14:17

The feedback was something like oh well, you don't need this. I mean, you've got your story straight.

Speaker 2: 14:21

So I was like okay, right, but I did win that day because in the jury there was somebody who also made a podcast for the City Council of Rotterdam and she said hey, I like your story because I'm doing the podcast series about the digital native Rotterdam as an exemplary city of the digital world and I want you to be in my podcast series. So I got in that that was my first podcast and there was also some pictures being taken then and then the entire summer the whole city of Rotterdam had like a billboard of storyline.

Speaker 1: 15:04

I saw you on the big one over the Maas Boulevard, just like there were huge.

Speaker 2: 15:08

There were all over the place. Yeah, so, um, yeah, so. I mean, I guess that's also worth 25k or something so what I'm saying is you never know what's gonna. You know who's there and where it's gonna bring you and and the the second um pitch competition I was. I was really annoyed that I didn't win the other one. So I thought you know what I'm going to just do something really stupid and crazy.

Speaker 2: 15:32

So I I entered into that pitch competition wearing my robe, you know, the lawyer's robe yeah because it looks really ridiculous obviously when you stand out doing a pitch and then I was like, yeah, so, and then I'm going to like throw off the robe, meaning that I'm a new me now and this is my company. So it was obviously quite ridiculous. Also didn't win.

Speaker 2: 15:54

So then I felt even worse I was like made a fool of myself and I didn't win. But then there was a really nice audience and somebody of a bank was there and he came up to me and that actually led to our first, um well, investment or loan, uh, innovation loan, if what you want to call it. So, yeah, if I had not done that, I'm I don't know if we would have survived so uh just saying it's, uh, it's, uh, yeah, you never know what you're gonna get good learning.

Speaker 1: 16:24

Just go in there and pitch and you never know what the result be either you might be on a box of chocolates life's like a box shelter. Actually. I've re-watched that movie with my kids, uh, three weeks ago. Uh, forrest gump awesome film. Sorry, sideway, but so you get your head on a billboard and you land your innovation loan with the bank. Um, talking about uh loans, um, you also recently raised, I think, in total 600k. I think that's a huge milestone. Um, what did that experience teach you about fundraising?

Speaker 2: 16:53

investors, your company um, I'm still in the learning process no no, we've uh, we've learned a lot, but, um, what I've learned really is, um, that you need to focus on your product, on your story, and don't think that people are handing out money. I must say I thought it would have been much easier. When you go on LinkedIn, maybe you know that's a little website where some people We'll- put it in the show notes.

Speaker 1: 17:29

Yeah, put it in the show notes.

Speaker 2: 17:33

But if you go on LinkedIn and you're like, oh, wow. I'm a woman, you know, I've got some experience. This is an impactful thing. It's a big problem. I'm early stage. I think I'm taking all the boxes for for for investment.

Speaker 2: 17:50

So I thought they'd be lining up. Well, they're not really, or they may be, because you can talk to a lot of people but, um, but immediately you get uh grilled on like traction and revenue and I was a bit I mean, I understand that in terms of economics, but I was like, well, we're going to build an app, so clearly I need the investment upfront. So it's a bit difficult to show like revenue and traction if you don't have that done yet. So that was a puzzle that we really needed to crack and I guess the innovation loan really was the uh the thing that helped us uh through there.

Speaker 1: 18:31

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 18:32

Um, yeah, so, um, you really need to focus on that, because that's all you'll ever hear, and, in hindsight, because you can whine about it, but it's actually. Well, it's not that dumb, because if you want to have a successful company, you have to show that it's apparently something that people are looking for. So, yeah, you have to look for that traction also yourself. You have to falsify or verify or validate what you're doing.

Speaker 1: 19:07

And how did you then? Because you got, I think, 250 on a stage in Silicon Valley and I think you told me within a very short time you also had Unique. Yeah, we had.

Speaker 2: 19:17

Unique. Unique is it took a while. Unique, yeah, we had. Unique, yeah, unique is, uh, it took a while.

Speaker 2: 19:25

I guess, um, you need some, some resilience and some um uh, dedication, uh, and not stopping or something because they, when I was there at unique in 2022 I know it was early, but we had had our team then and we had our entire deck, which didn't really change that much from what the deck is right now. But then they said, well, we don't see the technical side of it and you know what's so innovative about it and our clients going to want this, et cetera. So they really had their doubts and now, two years later, they said said well, actually, so we've proven those points in the meantime.

Speaker 2: 20:02

So, after having proven those points, um we, uh, we hit it off. So that was that. That was amazing. So for me it was like yeah, I, I told you two years ago, but um, uh, I guess that's the uh. You know, you need some patience as well. And not everybody sees the same thing that you're seeing, so you have to prove it.

Speaker 1: 20:24

Yeah, building the proof points over time.

Speaker 2: 20:25

And the prize was amazing, of course, because that was Silicon Valley, like an international stage, from the very heart of where this all is coming from giving us the validation that, yes, this is a global problem and, yes, this is a very good solution, and that doesn't cost us any equity or interest so, that's pretty pleasant.

Speaker 1: 20:56

That's pretty pleasant, and you were in Riyadh, I think, when this all happened, if I remember correctly, pitching on another stage.

Speaker 2: 21:02

I was, yeah, so we're sort of scanning the globe, testing the waters, yeah.

Speaker 1: 21:08

Very good, very good. I want to touch on serendipity a little bit with you, and you mentioned that in the statement. To what extent do you think all of this is luck, and to what extent do you think all of this is luck and to what extent do you think you can actually engineer serendipity?

Speaker 2: 21:25

well, I think you have to engineer serendipity, um, and then it will. It will come your way right, because it's it's something it's like manifesting or like, uh, radiating, whatever. But if you're going to sit in your house on your couch or on your chair, then serendipity is not going to be able to find you. So you have to go out and, you know, open your eyes and open your mind, I guess, and and look around you and talk to people and reach out, um, and that's where the magic happens okay, getting your story out making sure that people know about you?

Speaker 1: 22:08

yeah, and then they line up um.

Speaker 2: 22:10

In the end, well then, you give the universe the opportunity to send them your way yeah, it's like the power of attraction, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 22:19

100 yeah, another great book show notes. Um, before we go to the break, I want to dive into another part of your story, um, and that is your co-founders, because, if I'm correct, you started out with five co-founders and early on you had to say goodbye to two of them. Um, maybe can you paint the picture there, and what I'm particularly curious about is how did you navigate that, uh, difficult conversation?

Speaker 2: 22:46

well, I mean, from the start I knew I couldn't do this by myself, so I really wanted, uh to build a product and a and a company and a vibe, I suppose. So I I went out looking for um whoever fit. That yeah, um and um, I guess partly through serendipity, you know, I found a really amazing group of people. But you can um know from the start that you know life happens, so not everybody will stay on the same path. Um, for me it was a very personal uh thing, because, you know, I'm in the middle of all this, so I had to like introduce everyone to each other.

Speaker 2: 23:25

And then it's like so you feel very responsible yeah and then also when, when life happens to to one or two other people and and you have to part ways, that's um, uh, not something I'm uh super about, and it's a difficult conversation that you have to have, but we had that conversation and then there's actually not a problem. You cannot expect five or six people to hold hands for the next 20 years. That's not going to happen. So as long as it's um, done on time, with no like, um, uh, grudges, um, then yeah, so have the difficult conversation on time. I had to, I had to have that conversation and um, I had to, I had to have that conversation and um, uh, it's, I don't know, it's, maybe it's just like when you're doing your first pitch it's like oh, it's so painful.

Speaker 2: 24:27

Yeah, it's so painful, and you're like I wanna, I wanna just roll up in a big ball. But, um, just do it. And then you're like, oh, it wasn't so bad yeah, you have to go through actually it's such a relief and I'm so proud of myself now that I've done this. And you know, even whatever the, the consequence or the outcome, it's just going through something that you feel really anxious about you. Yeah, it helps you.

Speaker 1: 24:54

Just, you just do it and that's why the ceo of jet license what you told to you, the guy you let down. This is also decision making that comes with a role like this, whether it's a startup or a big corporate making people decisions yeah, it's um.

Speaker 2: 25:10

You know you have to um wear the outfit that comes with the responsibility. I guess there you?

Speaker 1: 25:15

go, and that's not always a rope, yeah maybe Maybe one more thing, but talking about co-founders, your co-founder, Martina, lives 10,000 kilometers away. I read this on Kekmama, the blog that you both are on. It's hilarious to see what's app messages in between you. But first, how did it come about? How can you have a co-founder 10,000 kilometers away and how do you make that work on a daily basis? Because it's a different time zone, right?

Speaker 2: 25:45

Yeah, it's six hours in summer and seven hours in winter. Okay, convenient, yeah Well, so Martina lives in Kuala Lumpur and I used to live there. So 2014 to 2017, I lived in KL. We had an expat experience. So I know asia pretty well. I know kl pretty well. I actually know martina's house pretty well because, this is exactly where I lived.

Speaker 2: 26:11

So, um, we always joke around like, you know, is she taking good care of my pool? But, um, so it's I. I can really understand that it's a completely vague concept to a lot of people, like, okay, ellen said it sounds very exotic and you know, people there must be like holidaying all all day. But, um, I know exactly where she is and martina actually is a very impactful and very driven person. So we met through a friend of ours, actually here in Rotterdam. She introduced us and, yes, I have zero difficulties with that because we actually have double working days. It's sometimes even a bit annoying because when I start my working day, there's always already like at least 15 emails of martina that I need to look at.

Speaker 2: 27:08

So, um, uh, yeah so, but that's how it works nice.

Speaker 1: 27:11

So as a team you can work around the clock. That is yeah, that's actually an advantage. But then you keep your just to keep it practical also work-life balance then you have time slots where you can communicate and then you leave each other when you know it's like night, so we do all our joint things in the morning.

Speaker 2: 27:28

For her it's the end of the day.

Speaker 1: 27:30

Yeah, cool. See, that's how we can make it work. So many more questions to ask, but we'll go for a quick break and then we'll be back.

Speaker 3: 27:39

You're listening to the podcast of Up Rotterdam. We help startups scale and grow their business by offering access to talent, access to international markets and access to capital. Curious how we can make the network work for you? Go to uprotterdamcom. This podcast was made possible by the City of Rotterdam.

Speaker 1: 28:00

Welcome back. We're talking about my alliance journey with JetLicense. We've covered so many topics pitching your story to everybody who wants to hear it and then you know actually that turns into serendipity validating traction with investors. We also talked about making tough decisions when it comes to co-founders. Before we go to the listeners' questions, you know know what's next in 2025 for chat license. What's your biggest challenges for this year?

Speaker 2: 28:27

um, this year is going to be, uh, let's say, our international breakthrough, because last year was really about building traction in the netherlands. We still have also a way to go in the netherlands as well, so this year will be our, let's say, breakthrough in terms of everybody in the netherlands knowing what jet license is and and why you need it. And then our first uh footsteps, uh, across the border uh, and across the border, which region is that will?

Speaker 2: 28:58

Well, we have some interest from all continents, so we have to make wise decisions in terms of what's most logical and where are the biggest deals. So we have to be very commercial here, because so far we've really focused on impact and making a good product that works and that really makes a difference for people. So, very product-focused, that's where all of our money went. So now to make it scalable and to also make it survivable and to make it really impactful on an international scale, we have to work with big partners to land that.

Speaker 1: 29:44

Yeah, similar to the Netherlands, right, because I mentioned in the intro, you have telcos here, governments supporting you. So, is that also your major business model, then going forward, yes, we're really focusing on telcos.

Speaker 2: 29:55

That's also why we're going to Mobile World in Barcelona again, because that's a large telco convention, because that's where it starts right. I've considered who needs this product and when do you buy it or when do you start using it. So, as a social enterprise, yes, I think it's important that everybody understands this has a price. But well, who pays for it? That's actually a different question. So our business model is really having the telco pay for it and then using also their scale and their marketing power to actually let it land and to make sure that people understand.

Speaker 2: 30:40

Oh, this is a really good addition and I want to use this. So to make that work you need big partners, a big telco. So in every country there are like two, three or four large telcos, sort of running the entire country in terms of market share.

Speaker 1: 31:02

So those are the ones we're focusing on Okay, well, that's a great road ahead. Going out there Up next listeners' questions. This is always fun because you never know what comes in.

Speaker 1: 31:16

The first listeners' question is from Marie-José. Marie-josé works at KPN, mario j works at, or works at, kpn. Actually, she works at techo now, which is another great company. Um, her question is how do you validate the willingness to pay for your product? And that's actually interesting because we just talked about your business model, so, she, you can answer this in the way you want how do you validate the willingness to pay for your product?

Speaker 2: 31:38

well, we've done that from the start, um by uh doing market research uh clearly um, you go and do quality qualitative research and quantitative research. So quantitative is really getting a summary of a list of questions out through email and qualitative is really doing interviews. So interviews are are really valuable. Um, so we've started doing that really with the moms from the school and then to another school.

Speaker 2: 32:11

So, we've, we've. We had a benchmark of about 50 parents we spoke to okay, um, and that's what we did right at the start, uh, because that's when you, you need to start like who, who wants this? And then, um, you know, knowing that it was a product that didn't exist yet, um, we, we came up with okay, well, less than 50 percent at this point is willing to actually pay for it, so that's also. But, uh, 100 needs it, according to us. So that's why we we.

Speaker 2: 32:46

We really got enforced by this b2b to see strategy because, uh, sadly enough, or sadly enough, or well, remarkably enough, people do, um, realize they need it. So funny or sad story uh, one of our google reviews uh gives us. So we were really well on our way, we had all these five star reviews and then we suddenly we got one star review and the guy says, yeah, I think this is amazing and people really need this, but the the fact that you have to pay for it really sucks.

Speaker 2: 33:19

So one star I you know what I actually saw that review and, uh, because I went through your, you have like super high rating and there was this one star guy I saw him so I was like, yeah, thanks for ruining our rating, but uh, yeah, it sort of proves our point because, um, and and I agree also with, with swimming lessons maybe or or anything, that's, you know, also really good for you, but also important that you can do?

Speaker 2: 33:47

um, clearly, not everybody is in a position to pay for everything. Yeah, and then the business model these people are faced with is okay. So we bombard you with commercials and everything. I mean all apps that are not something you pay for with money. You pay for with your data or with your time because you get exposed to all these commercials. So yeah, JetLicense doesn't do that. So, clearly.

Speaker 2: 34:14

I want people to understand that has a price. So when you go through the route that we have with the vouchers that you get from our partners or from our actual clients, then you see the actual value. So you see, hey, this costs 48 euros. And then, oh wow, I entered the voucher and it's zero so it's actually something.

Speaker 1: 34:34

It's, it's psychologically, uh, something that I think is important that you understand the value of a product that was made for you and not like um out of you yeah, yeah, that's a great, great insight and, by the way, um, running kind of the cost of acquisition for doing apps is insane if you don't have partners like the big ones you have. So it's really smart strategy, I think, also to get your distribution sorted, um, but indeed, understanding that you have to pay for things unless you are the product, uh, with the data, I think that's something that we all need to learn, uh, and that's you're educating on. Actually, mario, say thank you for that question and I hope to see you again very soon one word for mario say, because she used to work at kpn, indeed.

Speaker 2: 35:19

So she uh at upstream the first upstream uh I went to in 2022. She was my first contact and I was like, oh yeah, she works at kpn, I need to talk to her um, and she uh really was at the basis of us uh getting that deal with kpn. So I owe her uh a lot of gratitude and she's a great person. So, hi, mj wow, that's.

Speaker 1: 35:44

Uh. I second that very much. She's done a great role at kpn. Um, the second question is from a gentleman that is from your past. This is like christmas past, christmas present, christmas future mark potberg. Um, maybe you have to explain who he is well, he's the dean of lawyers right now.

Speaker 2: 36:03

he he's important, so he's the boss of all the lawyers in the region of Rotterdam. He was my first boss when I was a lawyer back in 2003.

Speaker 1: 36:14

Okay, well, he has a long intro to his question which I think comes with the legal profession. I'll read that out loud. He says Moilijn clearly has a diverse background, starting as a lawyer and ultimately becoming a tech entrepreneur after all. Impressive and remarkable. She has natural boldness as well as commercial talent, and, if I remember correctly, her father was a math teacher, so she likely has a strong analytical mind as well. But the world she operates in now is completely different, and yet she seems to navigate it effortlessly. Again, how does she do it and how does she experience this transition?

Speaker 2: 36:49

Oh, that's a very, very nice intro. I hold Mark very dearly. I think Mark is someone who really showed me how you should be someone's boss give somebody really autonomy, but also let them know when they're going a little bit overboard. That's his style, but he's a very wise man. So I'm glad he is now the dean for the lawyers, because I guess that profession has, uh has, a lot of challenges these days.

Speaker 2: 37:29

Anyway, um, I think when he says diverse background indeed, my, my parents were both, uh, teachers, so a math teacher, and my mother was a teacher of the dutch language so, um, yeah, I Dutch language. So, um, yeah, I guess that gives you an open mind or something. I, I really liked the fact that we, when you're a lawyer, that's a, that's also like a, it's just like a sect, right, you, you, you talk as in a, in a certain way, and it's like really people outsmarting each other the whole time. So that's, that's nice, but not all the time. So I think I, I, indeed I really like to be a bit like a chameleon and, um, yeah, be in different groups, because it's, you know, there's just, there isn't just one type of person, and if you want to understand like the majority, then you need to be around different people.

Speaker 2: 38:29

Nice so yeah, I really like that.

Speaker 1: 38:32

So it's not really a transition. It seems like you actually were already doing that, but maybe in a profession.

Speaker 2: 38:38

Yeah, but also, like I said, having lived in Asia and I've lived in Italy for a while, so I also really like to speak different languages and be around different cultures and really understanding it. I think the world is bigger than the Netherlands and especially if you're building a product that's supposed to serve the world, then you really have to look outside of your own comfort zone or your own area or your own language.

Speaker 1: 39:12

Yeah, get out of your bubble.

Speaker 2: 39:13

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 39:14

Cool, great. Well, thank you for sending this question, mark, and it sounds like he's a great leader indeed. Autonomy, and kind of making people, making sure people get on the right path if they go wrong. Next question is from a different time zone. It's from Martina, your co-founder, and her question is what is the first thing you think about with the word impact?

Speaker 2: 39:37

Ah, that's a nice one. Yeah, I think impact is really about making a meaningful change or transition. I was at a BNR on the radio and then they asked about when will it be a success? And I made jokingly. I said, yeah, if you can only help one family, then already. But that's actually not a joke, because that would be amazing, because that's really meaningful if you help someone, but clearly, if you want to do this um as a as a company, it has to have scale.

Speaker 1: 40:17

Yeah, so, um meaningful uh change or transition at scale I I guess that's what impact means yeah, and that's also what sits in the name social enterprise, because the social impact you're making if you help one family. But the enterprise part is actually that you can have a viable, sustainable business model over time and get it to a significant scale. No, definitely.

Speaker 2: 40:40

But I think it's funny that Martina asked this question, because we get asked this question a lot right. Which sometimes is a bit weird, because I would have to explain the impact of what we're doing. And I get that because you, yes, and you do have to explain, because not everyone is like you and understands what you're doing. But sometimes you're like, okay, did you really think I was going to devote three years of my life if there wasn't any impact? And sometimes even also impact investors. I mean, I hear the word impact a lot.

Speaker 2: 41:25

And I mean I hear the word impact a lot and I actually question the ones who mention it most. It's also a bit of a buzzword, so it sometimes gives me the creeps, to be honest. But, if you unpack that, yes, we're very impact driven, but I'm trying to find different words to describe honest. But if you unpack that, yes, we're very impact-driven, but I'm trying to find different words to describe impact.

Speaker 1: 41:50

So meaningful transition is something that I really like yeah Well, yeah no. It is hard and I think it's become the buzzword and it's like AI Investors investing in AI when it's not really an AI. I think the same is with impact investing. I have the privilege of working with one impact investor used to call it Eiffent in Blue City and they're really forward-driven but also making tough decisions, I think, because in the end, they want to have a financial balance with the impact balance right, and I think that's where it sometimes it hurts when philanthropy becomes investing, and anyway, we can spend the whole podcast on that part. But I I definitely hear where you, where you stand and, uh, changing people's lives in a positive way, I think in your case, um, whether we call it impact or not, I think that's a great mission to be working on for more than three years already.

Speaker 2: 42:41

Um yeah, and, and looking at those reviews so that apparently you've read I mean when I see those, then I'm like yeah, we're on the right track and this is. This is what impact, uh, we're, we're making so that makes me proud yeah cool, uh.

Speaker 1: 42:55

Final question is from lisha goldsmith, who's doing great work at erasmus enterprise. She's also, um, well, I would say, the founder of the nl startup competition and the erasmus enterprise and Erasmus university challenge. I have to get that straight. Her question is what is the skill that you still want to learn as an entrepreneur? Playing the piano oh wow, do you already play an instrument?

Speaker 2: 43:20

no, okay, no, um, and I think, um, I think something like playing the piano or like being really good at something really weird. That is actually a skill that can really show you something about a person. And I'm saying playing the piano because I would love that and that's also something on my list for 2025. But, for example, my brother uh, he's my younger brother, he, um, he works at a large corporation and he was recently presented there as the also new ceo of something, uh, well, company quite larger than jet license I would say quite larger than Jet License, I would say and he plays extremely, extremely beautifully. So at the presentation where they put him on the stage, there happened to be like a really beautiful Steinway piano. So he had asked the guys. He said, well, maybe I have to do this, so can I play. So he played some something really beautiful and I think the people who work at that company when they uh, what I mean?

Speaker 1: 44:33

that's an impression it resonates exactly yeah so what's the skill?

Speaker 2: 44:37

yeah, I mean obviously to be a good like a speaker and stuff, but but he will probably be. You know, everyone will understand. Okay, that's the piano playing CEO right.

Speaker 1: 44:50

Must be a nice guy.

Speaker 2: 44:52

So so something like that, Okay yeah.

Speaker 1: 44:56

That's also raising the bar If your brother's already really good. Do you have a piano? That's the first question. I do, I do you do? Okay, perfect, well, okay, this is on the record now, so I'm going to check in with you in a year from now how your piano playing is going yeah, I might put my, my 11 year old, forward and say she's, she's doing it okay, okay, cool.

Speaker 2: 45:14

No screen time.

Speaker 1: 45:15

No screen time for you so, uh, in our household they get screen time, but only for tap, which is the thing where you can get all the chords in. Okay, so they put an ipad on the piano. Yeah, okay, small sidestep here. My corona, um, my covid uh, everybody did something during covid, right, and mine was actually, uh, built my own piano. So I bought a very old wooden oh, if the people hear about this that I sold the piano from, they're probably not listening.

Speaker 1: 45:40

We bought like a hundred year old piano that came from a family but was horribly out of tune, and then I said I'm gonna restore it oh, that's amazing craftsmanship which actually meant like stripping all the components and building in a digital piano, because I used to be building the pianos for crazy pianos back in the days when they had the big red pianos oh my god, the things in there. Our company was I was working at keyboard sound back in the days, so I did that, that, and now my daughter, indeed, is playing the piano on this beautiful old, 100 year old piano that has a digital brain in it.

Speaker 3: 46:11

So we are cheaters but it works, yeah, anyways okay, anybody who wants tips on that.

Speaker 1: 46:16

I now know how to turn a old piano in a digital one, um, and we're all gonna play piano now. I'm gonna check in with you soon. My line has been a great story and it's nice to talk to you in a different way than we normally do when we kind of quickly pass ways, and it was really great to go into your story. We'll put all the links that we have in the show notes. I think it's quite a few, but as always, we close with a song that you have selected. So would you like to introduce the song and why you chose it?

Speaker 2: 46:43

Well song is by frank sinatra, which was my grandmother's favorite, and I remember that this song came by last year and especially the part where he says when I find myself lying flat on my face, I pick myself up and get back in the race. That feels very empowering and I urge everyone to listen to this and to have some fun and to find your own race Wow.

Speaker 1: 47:21

Thanks for picking a great song. You for listening. Until next time, keep it up that's life.

Speaker 4: 47:42

That's what all the people say. That's life. That's what all the people say. You're riding high in April, shot down in May, but I know I'm gonna change that tune when I'm back on top. Back on top in June, I said that's life. That's life. And, as funny as it may seem, some people get their kicks Stomping on a dream. But I don't let it. Let it get me down, cause this fine old world, it keeps spinning around.

Speaker 4: 48:30

I've been a puppet, a pauper, a pirate, a poet, a pawn and a king. I've been up and down and over and out, and I know one thing each time I find myself Flat on my face, I pick myself up and get back in the race. That's life. That's life, I tell you. I can't deny it. I thought of quitting baby, but my heart just ain't gonna buy it. And if I didn't think it was worth one single try, I'd jump right on a big bird and then I'd fly. I've been a puppet, a pauper, a pirate, a poet, a pawn and a king. I've been up and down and over and out, and I know one thing Each time I find myself laying flat on my face, I just pick myself up and get back in the race. That's life. That's life. That's life and I can't deny it. Many times I thought of cutting out, but my heart won't buy it. But if there's nothing shaking, calmness here to lie. If there's nothing shaking, come this here, july, I'm gonna roll myself up in a big ball and I, my, my,